1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Romans 11

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by glad4mercy, Oct 17, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,348
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Utterly false. Paul did not get it wrong.
    The passage says God chose the faithful, not chose those who had bowed their knee, then made them faithful.
     
    #141 Van, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,348
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dodge
     
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    209
    Faith:
    Baptist

    "the fullness of the Gentiles" is when all Elect Gentiles have been Saved.

    That is The Age of Churches. The New Testament Era. The 1,000 years, The Inner-Mediatorial Period, between Jesus' Ascent to Heaven and His Second Coming, 1260 days, time, times, and a half a time, Today is The Day of Salvation, The Acceptable Year of The Lord.

    Those Time Periods are all the same, leading up to Jesus Coming in Judgment and The Consummation of The Age.

    Each of The Seven Visions, in The Book of Revelation, take place during the same Time Period.

    They all take place at the same Time.

    The Jews remain in Partial Blindness, until Jesus Coming, The One and Only Time He Returns, at The End of The World.

    "And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away."

    Matthew 21:19.

    Jesus Knows His Bible.

    John R. Rice knows what is my position, now.

    So does Gill, Calvin, Sproul, & Wesley.

    You will, too, when Jesus Comes.

    ...

    If you had a concen regarding you and anyone else worshipping satan, you would go to The Bible with God The Holy Spirit and ask Him what God wants a child of His to understand, from a Spiritual Standpoint, as opposed to a Fleshly Standpoint.
    ...

    Oh, my God, God was so Pleased with one of the replies I made, it was deleted.

    Praise Jesus, for Spiritual Truth and Insight and Christian Fortitude, from God Himself.

    He's so Provocative, sometimes.
     
    #143 Alan Gross, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,348
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Note the use of an ad hominem, rather than address the fact this verse says God hardens when He would have no need if everyone started out with total spiritual inability.

    The doctrine they are pushing is unbiblical.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,348
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    More ad hominems, more defection from Romans 11. Nowhere in scripture is there any direct or indirect mention of the fiction of "judicial hardening" with the invented meaning of not really hardening. Utter nonsense once again.
     
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,278
    Likes Received:
    840
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Note.

    I did not agree with Van's greater number of points as I stated in the post #127.

    Beginning with the very first point, in which I pointed out:

    Van said:
    Romans11:1-10 analysis and commentary by Van.

    1: His people refers to those chosen under the promise of the Old Covenant, believing Jews. Not all of the blood line descendants of Abraham.​

    I replied:
    No, What "his people" refers to is to the line of Jacob and not the line of Esau nor the line (though not stated) of Ishmael.
    "...how he appeals to God against Israel?" God never refers to the line of Esau or Ishmael as "Israel." That is reserved for the descendants of Jacob who was renamed "Israel."

    This then REMOVES the thinking of "BELIEVING" from the line of "believing Jews" and makes it Jews - believing or not.
    The proof of this thinking is found in the context of the passage (Romans 11:1-3) when it points directly to Esau as not the line of His people. "Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?" and God responded that He has preserved a number that have not bowed, but He does not reject the rest, but acknowledges the preservation of the few in light of the coming preservation of the all.

    The whole of Romans 11 is about ALL Israel, not a small grouping.

    Paul verifies that thinking by stating that the branches broken off will be re-grafted into the root:
    24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? ... 26and so all Israel will be saved;
    See, Romans 11 is not merely the "believing Jews" but ALL Israel - the linage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel) and not Abraham, Isaac, Esau, or Abraham Ishmael.

    The blood line flowed through Israel, and none other.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,348
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Returning to the OP topic, understanding Romans 11.

    Here is my analysis and interpretation of verses 1-10.

    1: His people refers to those chosen under the promise of the Old Covenant, believing Jews. Not all of the blood line descendants of Abraham.

    2: His people (believing Jews) whom He foreknew (as part of the Old Covenant promise). Thus they were part of His previously formulated redemption plan under the Old Covenant Promise, not the Law.

    3: Some of Abraham's descendants rejected God and killed His prophets. These were not part of "His people."

    4: But from among the blood line descendants, God chose 7000 based on the condition of their faith in Him, for they had not bowed the knee to Baal.

    5: At the time of Paul's writing of Romans, there had come to a a remnant, in the same way, or in other words according to God's choice of believing Jews.

    6. An election based on faith is a gracious choice, and is not an election based on works.

    7. Those seeking the promise by works were hardened, but those seeking the promise by faith were chosen. Note the timing of the choice, at the present time, rather than before creation.

    8: The temporary hardening is as described in the OT.

    9: The temporary hardening is as described elsewhere in the OT.

    10: Note the duration of the hardening appears to last the lifetime of the individuals hardened at that time, rather than the hardening of all Jews for an unspecified period of time. Thus the hardening ended many many years ago.

    As you can see, this is a radically different take on the passage. Study the passage and two very different views and see what fits with the actual scripture.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,348
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When we see the term "all Israel" what do we say it means? All Jews? All bloodline descendants of Abraham? Just believing Jews? None of the above.

    All Israel refers to believing Jews and believing non-Jews as determined by God, or His individually chosen people
    See Romans 9:6 and Romans 11:26
     
    #148 Van, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,278
    Likes Received:
    840
    Faith:
    Baptist


    Even the views of Flowers acknowledges "judicial hardening" as a fact in the Scriptures (Judicial Hardening: God’s sinless use of sinful actions)

    If there is anyone who attempts to refute the statements of the Dutch presentation of Calvin's thinking it is Flowers.

    But leave it up to you to state the condition of your own view.
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,278
    Likes Received:
    840
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Van you are not quoting Romans 9 in context and therefore miss the statement's intent.
    Romans 9:
    6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
    You are making a false claim that Paul is not making.

    Romans 11:
    25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

    “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
    he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
    27“and this will be my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”

    28As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
    So, again, you have not presented the truth from the Scriptures as proved BY THE SCRIPTURES.

    All this time, I though that you consistently maintained that "all" means "all inclusive" in the Scriptures and that it was not some select group.

    Have you suddenly adopted the thinking of some in which you would push against by accepting their view? Are you actually in agreement with those in which you mock?
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,278
    Likes Received:
    840
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Totally refuted in Post 127, which you so conveniently ignored.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,348
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another topic change. And of course this judicial hardening has nothing to do with other judicial hardening defined before. BTW, both views are utterly bogus. When God hardens someone, He takes away the ability to chose godliness, but their sinful actions may be in accord with God's purpose, such as Pharaoh.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,348
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Repeating the truth about All Israel
    When we see the term "all Israel" what do we say it means? All Jews? All bloodline descendants of Abraham? Just believing Jews? None of the above.

    All Israel refers to believing Jews and believing non-Jews as determined by God, or His individually chosen people
    See Romans 9:6 and Romans 11:26

    Not all the Jews are "all Israel" and non-Jews (Ruth anyone?) are part of "All Israel."
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,278
    Likes Received:
    840
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You missed, again.
    Did you read what Hendrix wrote and Flower complemented with rather slight modification.

    Did you read from the link?
     
  15. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    13,543
    Likes Received:
    1,862
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 4:40 PM Pacific.
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    209
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All Elect Israel Shall Be Saved.

    The Remnant.

    The Bible is Practical.

    Not all Israel is Spiritual Israel.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    3,058
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It’s kind of funny that you can’t offer anything other than “liar liar pants on fire.”

    What part of “I have kept for myself” escapes you? You insisting on a condition is pure eisegesis, especially when to hold your position you have to deny both what Paul has actually written and the Old Testament passage from where he takes it.

    The Archangel


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    8,724
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't know what Bible you have been reading Alan but the remnant of spiritual Israel is of a multitude no man can number... That is true election... Brother Glen:)

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
     
  19. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2019
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    66
    Faith:
    Baptist


    The line of Jacob are believing Jews, not the blood line descendants of Abraham. Paul tells us so in the New Testament, who counts as the children of Sarah. Unbelieving Jews count as the line of Ishmael. And, Christians count as the line of Sarah. Judaism is a religion, and the Old Testament is full of converts of people with other blood lines.

    Which begs the question, who is Israel. And, on that point, you miss the mark.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16,348
    Likes Received:
    446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is not my fault you think personal incredulity is something more than a logical fallacy. Those chosen had not bowed the knee when chosen. Thus a gracious choice based on faith and not works.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...