Featured Romans 5:12 - the only possible view

Not true! your theory demands that the obedience of Christ is merely the legal precedence by which individuals are to be justified by their own works just as Adam's disobedience is legal precedence to be condemned due to their own sins.

Hence, your interpretation denies the substitutionary atonement of Christ and imputed righteousness and justification by faith.

Moreover, your definition of sin "comes short" of the Biblical definition as sin has its root in heart motive as God looks upon the heart and the ONLY motive that is not sin is the motive to thinks, say and do all things for THE GLORY OF GOD and "all have come short of the glory of God"

Infants and children are driven by SELF-Centered motives and it is easy to see as they must be trained to do what is right as doing wrong needs no training and the untrained child is an abyss of selishness.

No human comes into this world with the RIGHT MOTIVE and thus all are born SINFUL by their very motive behind all they think, say and do.

 

They shall call his name Jesus for he shall "save his people FROM HELL"????? No! hell is but a consequence of the REAL problem that salvation is designed to deliver man from - "FROM THEIR SINS"! There would be no hell if there were no sin and sin is what violates God's Law and thus hell is one of many other consequences of sin (sickness, death, war, hate, etc.).

Inability to be subject to the law of God (Rom. 8:7) and this is why all "in the flesh CANNOT please God" and "without faith it is impossible to PLEASE God" and all are born as unbelievers into this world and thus are "condemned already".

Inability to be subject to the Law/commandments of God is not a matter of pick and choose which one but all as they all are based upon the very same principle - love, which the fallen man is completely void of, as his "heart" is incapable of love for love "is of God" and requires a "new heart." The commands of the gospel are no different than any other commands of God - they require one to be "subject" or submission" and the fallen nature does not have that abiltiy - Rom. 8:7-8

The need of salvation by grace is admission that man has ALREADY failed to keep the law, already demonstrated complete inability to be righteous. Hence, it is not IN FALLEN MAN the ability to do this.

That means that LATER salvation by grace cannot repudiate or deny what the Law has already proven that man is totally incapabile of obeying God's commandments or else salvation by grace is not necessary if man inherently has power to obey God's commandments, regardless what commandment one may speak of - the ten commandments or the gospel commandments.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it too. The text says NOTHING about "faith" but places in direct contrast to Adam's "disobedience" the "obedience" of Christ as the contrasting ACTIONS. If Adam's "disobedience" supplies only legal precedence to judge sinful actions by many unto death and condemnation then Christ's "obedience" supplies only legal precedence for the RIGHT actions of many unto life and justification.

The contrast is between one man's "disobedience" versus one man's "obedience" not between one man's disobedience versus justification by faith as your irrational logic attempts to read into Romans 5:12-19.

You have no clue to the Biblical definition or understand of sin and that is why you espouse such unbiblical views. God looks upon the heart because the heart contains the MOTIVE that determines whether attitudes, words and actions are RIGHT and ACCEPTABLE in God' sight and the only RIGHT motive is in whatsoever you think say and do DO ALL FOR THE GLORY OF GOD and that proper motive is MISSING in infants, children as will all "in the flesh" and that is why they are born sinful BY NATURE as the heart they are born with is not a good heart and their SELFISH attitudes and actions are so obvious that one must be willfully blind not to see that.

 

Notice the obvious contradiction in your comparison! If you were consistent you would have said:

"For those that SINNED LIKE ADAM, the judgement or condemnation to death is passed upon them. For those who OBEYED LIKE CHRIST, the justification and life is passed upon them."

However, that would teach justification by works wouldn't it! But that is exactly what your idea demands. Your idea must not make the contrast between one man's "disobedience" versus "obedience" but you must omit the word "obedience" from your comparison to avoid teaching justification by works but that is what you logic requires.

Do you really beleive that this one verse fully explains the doctrine of sin??? No wonder you don't know what sin is. Sin is not merely willful transgression but it is also the omission of what God demands or coming short (Rom. 3:23) but the root of commission and omission has to do with the MOTIVE of the heart (1 Cor. 10:31; Rom. 14:21). God LOOKS UPON THE HEART as the heart motive is one primary factor that determines whether attitudes, words and actions are sinful or righteous in God's sight as everything coming from man originates out of the heart. The second primary factor is whether the attitude, words and actions conform to God's revealed will - the Scriptures.

The very same selfish heart that defines sinfulness of all attitudes, words and actions in the sight of God for all who are "in the flesh" is the very same heart they are born with in the womb and which quickly manifests that selfishness as soon as they are born and only gets more evident every day they live.

 

What you are failing to grasp is that this inability is defined in relationship to God's Law/commandments and confrontation with the law proves its existence is fundemental to the the proper understanding of the fallen nature of man, which does not change with simply giving man another commandment (repent and believe) from God.

This is why God must CREATE something new in man as the inherent fallen nature does not and will not cooperate or else no CREATIVE work would be necessary!

This is why redeemed man still has the fallen nature which is still completely and entirely operating by "the law of sin" which is enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be.

Your whole system denies these fundementals and if your system had any truth it would not need any creative act of God producing a NEW MAN or a NEW heart. All of thes NEW things as CREATIONS of God repudiates your whole system and logic.

 

The revelation of Law and grace are by the same mode of expression - COMMAND - "repent and beleive" are much a COMMAND as any one of the ten commandments. You are presuming that inherent inability to be SUBJECT to command of Law has changed somehow or has been removed in regard to command of the gospel of grace and you have not a single text of scripture to support such position.

That is absurd! You know fully well I make a clear distinction between law and grace and this accusation is not merely false but insultive.

The issue is not the difference between them but the similiarity by which they are expressed to fallen man - BY COMMAND. Repent and believe are commands and found in the imperative mode. The fallen nature is incapable to be "subject to the law/command of God. You can see this in any child, just command him not to do this or that and he will either violate it or walk as close to the line as possible showing his heart has already violated it.

 

Be honest now and answer this question objectively. Does Romans 8:7 define individual differences in the contents of a law/command or is defiance to law/command the real issue being expressed?

I can go back into the Old Testament and find the exact same appeals, persuasive langauge, pleas to obey God's law and you know it! I can find the same approach to the Law of God in the gospels when Christ dealt with the rich young ruler or the pharisee and the greatest commandments.

The gospel does not "ask" anything! It delcares what Christ has done and calls sinners to "obey the gospel" by repenting and believing.

 

My point is very simple. The problem presented in Romans 8:7 is not concerning the CONTENTS of any given command, whether the contents is of a civil, ceremonial, moral or repentant or something to believe" but the phrase "is not subject to the law of God" is descriptive of the reaction of fallen man regardless of what may or may not be the content of the command.

You were attempting to make a distinction based upon content between law and grace but Romans 8:7 has nothing to do with any content of a command but how the fallen nature reacts to ANY COMMAND coming from God.

Again, you cannot deny that repent and believe are commands, they are found in the imperative mode. You cannot deny that appeals and persuasive langauge is used consistently throughout the Old Testament and even in gospels concerning obedience to the law. So your contrast between law and grace in view of Romans 8:7-8 is false and misleading as Romans 8:7 has no reference to what the CONTENT of the command may be but rather the inherent attitude toward ANY COMMAND originating from God.

This kind of response makes any rational discussion impossible. The post-defato experience of salvation does not deny inherent total depravity. You quote this as though it is proof against inherent depravity when it says nothing - zero - zilch about the issue of debate. Again you are presuming your position to be true when the text does not even remotely provide any evidence for you. I can just as easily presume that God effectually called him by grace as you can use it to deny it.

Again, those "in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD" and the minimual requirement to please God is coming to him by faith (Heb. 11:6). If faith is the minimal requirement to please God then those "in the flesh" do not have that ability as they "cannot please God". Again you are PRESUMING your view into arguments you first need to prove.

You imagine the very same inability manifested in UNWILLINGNESS to obey the Law has somehow disappeared in regard to equal appeals to come to God another way, when the root issue is that "none seeketh after God" due to that inherent depraved condition regardless of the appeal and pursausion.

True! But what you are failing to grasp is the DESIRE, THIRST, HUNGER, and LOVE for light and HATRED for sin that must first occur before any such appeal is even an appeal. Here is where you system is dead and buried because the fallen nature manifested toward the law STILL EXISTS when confronted with the gospel and it "IS" enmity against God which can never be defined as LOVE or desire for God or to please God - Rom. 8:7 - and this is Pauls explanation why all "in the flesh CANNOT what? PLEASE God. Do you understand what is required to have a disposition to PLEASE anyone????

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I don't want to come across insultive or degrading but you are sending out your rational ability to think on a vacation when saying what you say above. To any rational mind, the attitude of enmity against anyone would be equal to anything coming from that person whether law or grace and espeically grace since that kind of mindset DENIES they are sinners, guilty or worthy of death but sees themselves as gods (Rom. 1:21-23) and as good as anyone (Rom. 2:1-5; 17-25). So the command to repent is more insultive and offensive than the command to obey. Why? Because if someone hates you and manifests that by violating every law coming from you do you really think that offering them mercy and grace will endear you to them or make them even hate you more for speaking down to them? Try your logic with someone who hates you and tell them you will forgive them for things they deny they are guilty of and see what response you get.