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Featured Romans 9 doesn't prove Calvinism; it proves the oppositie

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Guido, Mar 16, 2022.

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  1. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

    2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

    3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

    5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

    10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

    11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

    18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

    26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

    29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

    30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

    31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

    32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

    33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Romans 9 KJV
     
    #1 Guido, Mar 16, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2022
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Ok?
     
    #2 Reformed1689, Mar 16, 2022
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Wow...never saw this before.
    My mind is changing just looking at this.
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Mar 16, 2022
    • Funny Funny x 4
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  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Notice all the exegesis.
     
    #4 SovereignGrace, Mar 16, 2022
  5. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I actually read the post and said to myself, thank you for proving our position!
     
    #5 Reformed1689, Mar 16, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    This as translated is Plagiarism. ". . . having done . . . ." As a single for what is actually plural in the Greek. And this word used in the plural only occurs twice in the New Testament. The first time translated as ". . . which used . . . ." Acts of the Apostles 19:19.
    So any not yet born children are not sinless. Note Psalms 58:3, ". . . The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. . . ."
     
    #6 37818, Mar 16, 2022
  7. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Not sure how the OP is trying to prove his point.

    The issue with romans 9 is how it is translated in context.

    The fatalist view vs the "Did God make a mistake choosing Israel" view.

    depending on which context you read it. You will come up with extremely different views.
     
    #7 Eternally Grateful, Mar 16, 2022
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    He apparently is using the "method" of some here who quote a verse without understanding, then claim it does not teach what it says.I understand.
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Mar 16, 2022
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Neither Romans 9, nor the rest of scripture supports the false doctrine of Calvinism.

    Lets just take one minor point. Calvinists falsely claim the choice of Jacob over Esau demonstrates an unconditional election, however it was so the older would serve the younger, thus a conditional election. Such is the false foundation of Calvinism.
     
    #9 Van, Mar 16, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2022
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Romans chapter 9 like other Scriptures, have been hijacked by the reformed who try to force them to support their theology.

    Like the preference of Jacob over Easu, is for SERVICE, and not salvation, as some distort it to mean
     
    #10 SavedByGrace, Mar 16, 2022
  11. timdabap

    timdabap Member

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    I am not a Calvinist, but, it will be interesting if you would elaborate how Romans 9 disproves the Calvinist doctrine and proves the opposite.
     
    #11 timdabap, Mar 16, 2022
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you can show how you see Calvinism in the chapter. It is forced by them
     
    #12 SavedByGrace, Mar 16, 2022
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Which of the 5 points of the TULIP do you say are false? No answer will be forthcoming if the pattern of deniers runs true to form. For example, I agee that the P is similar to the true doctrine of once saved, always saved. However the other four (TULI) are false doctrines.
     
    #13 Van, Mar 16, 2022
  14. timdabap

    timdabap Member

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    =
    All children, except those regenerate from the womb, have the sin nature, as the psalm you quoted states.
    But they have not done good or evil yet, which are deeds stemming from their fallen nature.
    Notice, the psalm says, "they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.".
     
    #14 timdabap, Mar 16, 2022
  15. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    actually, That was not the reason either.

    God was showing he chose Israel based on his standard. and not according to the traditions of men.

    In this manor. God chose Jacob (Israel) over Esau (edom) the younger would serve the older.. which was contrary to human tradition, in which the firstborn is chosen and the younger serves the older
     
    #15 Eternally Grateful, Mar 16, 2022
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    With the inherited fallen nature, we are all conceived dead in sin do to the sin nature.
    Mark 10:14-15, ". . . But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ." First of all, Christ died for them. And when we are no longer a little child, John 3:3 in order to meet Mark 10:15 requirement.
     
    #16 37818, Mar 16, 2022
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Actually scripture (Romans 9:12) indicates my view is correct. Your view may also be correct, but would need specific support of scripture.
     
    #17 Van, Mar 16, 2022
  18. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Actually the context of romans 9 shows who is correct. The context is in the first 6 verses.

    What you have is your view.
     
    #18 Eternally Grateful, Mar 16, 2022
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No Van, you take that verse out of context. READ THE WHOLE PASSAGE. I know that seems to be a sticky point for the Non-Calvinist view because it blows you out of the water. It is talking about the will and choice of God. Read Romans 8. Read John 6. We don't take one single verse and say hey look, ELECTION! No, it is a look at the ENTIRETY of Scripture.
     
    #19 Reformed1689, Mar 16, 2022
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You have a very weak view of God.
     
    #20 Reformed1689, Mar 16, 2022
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