1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Russian Bombers Land In Venezuela for Drills

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Crabtownboy, Sep 11, 2008.

Top Posters
  1. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Bush and his advisors never seem to learn that there are reactions to his policies that anger others. I am sure he and his group will shout an stomp around, but what do they expect. After all putting missiles in Poland, radar in the Czech Republic, right on Russia's door stem is sure to bring about a reaction. Well here is a first step, but it will not be Russia's last reaction and I expect we will not like what they do next. Bush has made our security much more insecure.
     
    #1 Crabtownboy, Sep 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2008
  2. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,395
    Likes Received:
    2
    Crabby, what makes you the foreign relations expert on this board? Seems Reagan was accused of the same things that you are saying and Reagan's stance brought about the demise of the Soviet Empire. The Soviets don't understand diplomacy. Only by showing strength and resolve can we keep the Soviets in check.
     
    #2 sag38, Sep 11, 2008
  3. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Russia went bankrupt before we did under Reagan .. and he almost bankrupted the US.

    The situation is very different now. Russian has money, lots of money and is making lots of money daily through their oil and gas reserves. We do not have money, Bush has almost bankrupted the US with his Mid-Eastern misadventures.
    I would say that currently it is Bush who does not understand diplomacy. In 2000 he told the Israelis and the Palestines that they could settle their differences, he was not going to talk to them. This was his stance all over the world. He threw away an agreement that had been reached with North Korea prior to his taking office. That resulted in all kinds of problem for us and the world. Even after he saw that his approach was working his administration has been very slow and poor at diplomacy. He understands force, but does not seem to understand that there are negative results to force being used. He has restarted the Cold War with his moving missiles to Poland, Russia's doorstep. How would we like it if they put them in Canada? He is leaving us much more insecure than we were when he took office.

    Our military is much weaker now than when he took office as it has been wasted in Iraq and Russia, indeed the entire world, knows this. Do some research and you will see that China is quietly making plans for the post-America world. They see us as a super-power in decline while they are an increasing power ... not a super power yet, but they are growing stronger.

    Read articles in magazines like Foreign Affairs and other scholarly magazines to gain a better understanding of what is really going on. These magazines are not liberal nor conservative ... they publish scholars who have deeper understandings through their research than the popular news magazines or TV news. TV news is probably the worst place to gain information on the world.


    Current Foreign Affairs table of contents page at: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/
    Another good magazine is The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/
     
    #3 Crabtownboy, Sep 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2008
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Russia is trying to rebuild the communist regime. What legitimate reason would Russia have for objecting to a defense missle system in Poland unles they have ambitions similar to Georgia. Boy I get tired of the hate America first crowd like crabby here. What ever anyone else in the world wants is right and if America makes them mad then we are wrong.

    There is a difference between diplomacy and appeasement. The latter was the cause of WWII. We need to protect Israel, Georgia, Poland and Iraq. There is a reason Poland wants that defense missle system in their country. Talk like in this op really pushes me toward McCain at times. He has a lot of problems but he is not some weak kneed pantywaste that talks a lot of talk filled with visceral hatred for his own country.
     
    #4 Revmitchell, Sep 11, 2008
  5. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    Russia was given more than $50 billion in aid from the US and Europe after the Soviet Union dissolved. Russia was invited to join the G7 group, and assumed the chairmanship of the G8. Yes, Russia has been badly mistreated :rolleyes:

    Russia has provided Iran with advanced missile defense systems. Russia has sold advanced fighter jets to Syria, and the Russian reporter who was investigating those sales met an untimely death. Putin has been selling millions of dollars worth of arms to Hugo Chavez. But none of these actions are a problem?

    And I guess it is ok for Putin to aim missiles at his neighbors, but they are not allowed to defend themselves.
     
    #5 NiteShift, Sep 11, 2008
  6. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Russia, like any country, will do what they believe is in their best interest. All those things you mentioned are problems, but we have done nothing constructive to try to reduce the threat or eliminiate the problems.

    Russia's missiles are probably aimed at the US and at China. However Putin did tell Poland that when missles are put there then they also will be targeted. Poland did not respond in the way that Moscow had hoped they would. It is a dangerous situation and becoming more dangerous as each side ups the ante.
     
    #6 Crabtownboy, Sep 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2008
  7. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    The US has done very little to up the ante in any of this. Threaten to revoke Russia's membership in the G8? Putin doesn't care about that. Bush sent humanitarian aid to Georgia, and diverted a few ships to the Black Sea. It seems the least he could do under the circumstances.
     
    #7 NiteShift, Sep 11, 2008
  8. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You mean you do not consider putting state-of-the art radar in the Czech Republic ... for us, not the Czechs ... and putting missiles in Poland is not upping the ante?
     
    #8 Crabtownboy, Sep 11, 2008
  9. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    You mean the way that Russia has installed advanced radars and SA missiles in Iran? You'll notice that we didn't threaten them with nuclear attack, as the Russians have Poland.
     
    #9 NiteShift, Sep 11, 2008
  10. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hmmm, do not believe you answered my question.

    Iran is a lot further away from the US than Poland is from Russia.

    Now please answer my question.
     
    #10 Crabtownboy, Sep 11, 2008
  11. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    Countries are entitled to use defensive measures if they choose to. Some other parties may not like it, but it's not a threat. No it's not upping the ante.
     
    #11 NiteShift, Sep 11, 2008
  12. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So if Russia put 'defensive' missiles in Canada, or Cuba, or Venezeula you would not consider that uping the ante, and you would not be upset as by your logic that is simply Russia using defensive measures?
     
    #12 Crabtownboy, Sep 11, 2008
  13. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    An insult maybe, but not a threat. And why the scare quotes around "defensive"? Defensive means just what it says.
     
    #13 NiteShift, Sep 11, 2008
  14. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Would you believe they really meant defensive?

    Do you believe they believe us when we say defensive?
     
    #14 Crabtownboy, Sep 11, 2008
  15. billwald

    billwald New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    2
    Chickens are are coming home to roost. Putin isn't going to back down like during Cuban Crisis.
     
    #15 billwald, Sep 11, 2008
  16. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    First, Russian bombers are drilling in Venezuela. Big deal. They'd be intercepted long before they reach the US. So, they aren't the threat of the missiles in Cuba. Let's not overreact to the situation.

    Second, many here are evaluating the situation as if the Kremlin (be it occupied by the tsars, commissars, or Putin & Co.) is thinking along the same lines as Paris, London, Berlin, or even Rome. To me th basic characteristics of Americans are our optimism and our trust of our fellow man. On this point, I don't care if you're a God fearing Primitive Baptist preacher or a Earth loving mother in law of Karen and Beth. We all have these two characteristics in common if nothing else.

    The cold hard fact is these aren't the basic characteristics of Russian culture pessimism and paranoia are. The basis of Kremlin actions since before the days of Ivan the Terrible has been paranoia. You'd think that way to if you had to deal with the ravenous wolves Moscow has been historically surrounded by: Mongols, Tartars, Turks, Swedes, Poles, Teutonic Knights, Germans, et. al.

    Third, the Kremlin's paranoia leads it to a glacis mentality. Better Berlin gets destroyed than Warsaw, better Warsaw than Minsk, better Minsk than Moscow.

    Fourth, Moscow has never stopped being the capital of the Russian Empire. Yes, the US has imperial tendencies. But they are spelled with a small "i" not a capital. One of its rules for How The World Operates is if a territory was under Russian sovereignty for any period of time, Moscow still gets to call the shots in that piece of geography. N.b the glacis principle.

    Fifth as for the "defensive" nature of the anti-missile systems, the Russian missiles pointed at the US are located such that they go over the Arctic not over Poland. Further, the Russians have enough missiles in their inventory to overwhelm any systems put into Poland.

    Now, do we worry about Moscow or Tehran?
     
    #16 Squire Robertsson, Sep 11, 2008
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...