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Salvation Question

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Marco, Nov 2, 2005.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    some of us do
     
  2. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    ok James....I couldn't figure out why Faust was being brought up in this. I'll leave ya alone now..... [​IMG]
     
  3. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Faust is my pastor, Joey Faust [​IMG] any way, he did write a book documenting that it is an historic pre-millennial belief.
     
  4. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Hello Marco. It is difficult for everyone to know where to start to understand their salvation. It takes most literally years to come close to the knowledge of what God allows each of us have. The problem of confusion in understanding His Word has sidetracked so very many, and the Bible is out for all to see, but hardly ever opened outside of Sunday school, or in church.

    I see some have given you helpful information. But as you study His Word, please endeavor to keep in mind the period of time you are living in. Look closely at His Word, asking question as you read. Study as you read each verse, realizing He is the beginning and the end. The Bible is His Word, and He begins at the Beginning in His Book, and takes us to the end.

    Where do you fit into the Bible? Not in the beginning, and not at the end. But you are defiantly in His Word, for you are here today. Don’t you just hate to be reading the paper, or a magazine and somehow a mistake has happened. The article fails to identify someone, or What happened, etc. If we don’t know the Who, the What, Where, Why, When, or How, we don’t know the whole story.

    We must remove doubt of salvation, and the sooner the better, for then we can have peace in our hearts. I am a Gentile, and the Bible tells us we are all the same today in the eyes of God, i.e. He is treating us all the same, even though we are different. You are in Matthew now, so you will see that Jesus at that time said He didn’t come us (me). The world today is made up of the Jew, Gentiles, and the church of God, 1st Corinthians 10:32. How do we as individuals get into this “church of God” today, the Body of Christ? Acts 16:28-31, ”But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

    Is that all there is to it? Yes! How is that possible? ”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Then what is our next step? ”Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”, Philippians 2:12.

    As you read in Matthew, as all other books in the Bible, you will find contradiction after contradiction, yet they are not contradictions. They will remain contradictions until you know who said what to whom, and when they said it. Use the 5 “W’s” with the how of it, and the contradictions will disappear. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  5. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    I understand how easy it is to get off track ,but we are trying to help Marcos here and not hijack anything and go off on our own tangent.
     
  6. JWI

    JWI New Member

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    Perhaps I see this in a different way, but I believe any true Christian who witnesses fullfills these verses.

    Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

    Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Comment- OK, here is a very direct question. What works shall we do? And Jesus answered BELIEVE.

    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    The answer-

    Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

    Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.

    Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    Comment- When you tell someone about Christ, if they receive Him, then you have given them food and water that will last forever.

    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    Answer-

    2Cr 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    2Cr 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Sick?

    The answer again is Jesus.

    Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

    Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    In prison? Jesus will set you free.

    Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    Do you want to feed the hungry and clothe the naked? Do you want to heal the sick and free those in prison?

    Then tell them about Jesus.

    Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    I am not saying that Christians should not help those in need. But I believe our greatest duty is to tell people of Christ.

    Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples [unto them], and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

    I am sure I will catch flack for this interpretation.
     
  7. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    I don't believe that there is such a thing as a lazy Christian if by that you mean a carnal Christian, one who is supposedly saved by returns to their sinful life. There are Christians and non-Christians. The former will be on Christ's right after the judgement and the latter will be on His left.
     
  8. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    He is seeking understanding of the Word of God, not confusion. His Word when correctly divided gives understanding.
     
  9. DeeJay

    DeeJay New Member

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    Jesus does not say "some are saved by deeds" look at these verses:

    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works , lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
    Ephesians 2:8-10

    and

    knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified .
    Galatians 2:16

    The Bible is very clear that we can not be saved by our works and deeds. The Bible is also clear that those who have been saved already will show evidence of it in their lifes thru works and deeds. We do not work to be saved, but those who are saved already will work. The Holy Spirit compels the saved to do the work of the Lord. When The Shepherd divides the sheep from the goats the sheep will be the ones who have been justified by faith in Christ, they will also be the ones doing the Lords work because they have already been saved by faith.

    So if you have beleved in the true Jesus Christ in your heart, you can have confidence that you will be counted amount the sheep. Believers are judged on the work and righoutness of Jesus not on our own work. I thank the Lord for that. Because you are saved the Holy Spirit lives inside of you, He is the one compeling you to do the Lords work. So be confident in your salvation and go do the good works because you are already saved.
     
  10. MikeinGhana

    MikeinGhana New Member

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    If Joey Faust be right,

    What does sealed unto the day of redemption mean?

    What does , No man is able to pluck them from my father's hand mean?

    What does, I give unto them eternal life mean?

    What does, Nothing can separate you from the love of God mean?

    What does, I will in no wise cast them out mean?

    There is just too much plain scripture that teaches contrary to Mr Faust's beliefs.
     
  11. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Mike, I know just what you mean. I did not believe that this doctrine could be true, I was taught once-saved-always-saved by faith alone and I was sure that this idea was totally contrary to free grace. But in fact, this doctrine preserves free grace wholly from the Arminian 'lose your salvation' interpretations of the warning passages in the Bible.

    Sealed unto the day of redemption means exactly that. The question is, what day is that? Jesus said in John 6 (no wise cast out) that whoever believes on Him would be raised up on the last day.

    John 6:39-40
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    When is this last day that Jesus speaks of?
     
  12. DeadMan

    DeadMan New Member

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    Marco, James 2:14-26 should explain the the faith vs. works issue to you clearly. It's simple. REAL faith produces good works.
     
  13. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    Why do both descriptions of the judgement (MA 25 and REV 20) emphasize judgement by works if they aren't considered for entrance into the kingdom? I'm not talking about works being required for salvation. I'm talking about works done while in a close relationship with Christ (picking up our cross and following Him).

    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    I basically agree with DeadMan and with James:

    Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
     
  14. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

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    This one is difficult in terms of determining just to whom and about what our Lord was speaking. But the following article by Bob Wilkin is excellent on this:

    I have also heard the comment on this parable that it had to do with some sort of judgment of the nations, not of individuals. Not sure about that. One thing that is clear and interesting: he never predicates "deliverance" on what the sheep/goats did with Christ, but with His followers.

    FA
     
  15. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

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    Regarding Matthew 25:31ff, and the sheep-n-the-goats parable, I have struggled in the past to understand what it was really saying. There are a few key points regarding Matthew 25:31ff and the parable of the Sheep and the goats that we must keep in mind:

    Here are some other points to note, most of which Wilkin noted in that article I listed in my previous post:
    1 - ALL the sheep are praised and 'inherit the kingdom' - not just some of the sheep, and ALL of the goats are eternally damned.
    2 - The judgment is based on works - we know from Paul's writings that our justification is based solely on faith. Andt to be even more specific - the judgment is based on how the Gentiles treated believing Jews during the Tribulation.
    3 - Notice that actually three groups are considered here (25:40) - the sheep, the goats, and "His brethren."

    and here's a real clincher:
    4 - The basis for the praise or rebuke is how the Gentiles/nations (same Greek Word - EQNOS) in question treated believing Jews during the 7-year Tribulation period.


    Some say that this parable is teaching that all those who are true believers will always naturally produce good works and so will inherit the kingdom. They say that the works produced are the fruit that demonstrates the reality of their having trusted in Christ and been born again - hence they provide a sort of litmus test of our faith. I usually agree with Walvoord, who takes this position and sees it as the "evidence of salvation." IOW, some say that while works are not the basis of justification for salvation, they are the fruit or evidence of it.” In general I agree with this, but I don't think that is what is happening in this passage. And those who take this position are ignoring the context - that Jesus was specifically speaking about the tribulation period - not now. If we ignore this we will miss what Jesus is saying.

    It is one thing to say that good works are the natural result of our faith and consequent regeneration by the Spirit and quite another to say that good works are the basis for our assurance of salvation.

    Still others say that this parable is saying that it is not enough to just believe, but we must do good works as well. IOW, essentially that would be saying that we are not saved by faith alone.

    I would like to point out one more thing which Wilkin noted: the 3 parables which immediately precede this account (Matthew 24:42-25:30) all teach on the rewards which can be earned by being faithful and a lack of rewards for those believers who are not faithful. This is not directed toward the general populace, but to His disciples.


    Now in 25:31 it speaks about the "Son of Man" (Christ) coming in His glory with His angels, which is an obvious reference back to Matthew 16:26-28 - another passage which deals with rewards based on works:

    This is talking about the 7-year tribulation period. We cannot apply it to here and now. All of these parables are referring to kingdom truth. Notice...

    Verse 46 reminds us that this is speaking about eternal punishment for some and eternal life for others.

    Now this overall context is what is referred to as the Olivet Discourse. If we consider the entire group of parables together, it will be more clear. In this instance, we need to specifically consider the parable of Matthew 24:4-28 with its signs of the end of the tribulation. There Jesus taught that all who "endure to the end" will be "saved".

    Wilkin said that we need to ask... "Endure til the end of what?" ... And "saved" in what sense?

    The end of the tribulation is in view.

    So enduring here has to do with being faithful - to persevering under intense persecution and threat of loss of life. And "salvation," SWTHRIA, here is not referring to gaining eternal life - to "justification." It is referring to surviving the tribulation period. Notice Matthew 24:22 -

    So the chosen/elect will be greatly persecuted because they refuse to take the mark. IMO what this text is saying is that those who do NOT persevere will not survive the tribulation period - physically. That is, they will not live through it. Clearly here SWTHRIA should be translated as "survive," and is not referring to eternal life salvation from hell here, as is commonly thought.

    So this is NOT referring to enduring to the end so that they will be saved from hell. No, this is simply saying that only faithful believers will live through the tribulation period. Now let me add that Wilkin says this is probaly intended to be taken in general - like the proverbs. It is speaking in generalities. There will surely be some exceptions to the rule.

    This approach to this text gives an adequate explaination for why all of the sheep are praised at the judgment of the Gentiles/nations. But every surviving believer will be marked by faithfulness. Some will have died despite their faithfulness, likely, but those who survive - through such an intense, 7-year persecution - were clearly protected by God's hand.

    Consider the basis for the "goats" being sent away into "eternal punishment." It was was due to their sin - clearly - but we can also trace it to their lack of faith. Since those cast into eternal fire must not have trusted in Christ, their sins were not covered by His blood and so their destiny is eternal damnation, right? I realize that is reverse reasoning - starting with my conclusion. But I simply want to make clear that this parable does not make salvation from hell by faith alone untenable. Salvation by faith would be true in any period... OT (looking forward to the Messiah), now - during this time of the Gentiles, and during the tribulation period as well. Notice would Jesus said:

    Ultimately, our destiny is based on what we do with Jesus. Whether "tribulation saints" (believers) will survive the tribulation period (make it through it alive) will depend on their faithfulness. Specifically, the works looked at will be how the nation of Israel is treated by them, IMO. IOW, Jesus is making it clear that the nations in general, and people specifically, will be judged based on how they dealt with His beloved nation - Israel. The focus of the tribulation period is the nation of Israel.

    The basis for "inheriting the kingdom" (a big deal to the Jews of those days, and to His disciples) was good works. That is true today as well. But entering the kingdom - that depends on our faith in Christ. We need to keep in focus what Jesus was teaching to His disciples. When we try to wrest it out of that focus, we will start drawing wrong conclusions. This particular judgment passage deals with survivors of the tribulation. We must never forget that key distinctive.

    Some say that this is alsoe teaching that believers who missed the rapture but survive the tribulation will not appear at the judgment (BEMA) seat of Christ. I'm not sure. (That would not be so strange if true, after all neither will those who become believers during the millennium appear at the BEMA seat of Christ - which occurs at the beginning of the 1000-year millenial period - so they could not, of course. They will evidently be "judged" for rewards at the end of the millennium.) Not sure about this. Also those unbelievers who survive the tribulation may not appear at the GWT judgment apparently, but may immediately be judged based on their treatment of Israel. But personally, based on Revelation 19, which is not a parable - an allegory making a point, I would say they will be judged at the GWT at the end of the tribulation period:

    So those who received the mark will be killed and then resurrected for the GWT judgment a 1000 years later.

    Personally, IMOMatthew 25:31ff is a parable, and we must keep that in mind. The Bible nowhere records a place where both believers and unbelievers are judged at the same throne... except possibly here. Since this judgment would not agree with Revelation 19, IMO I do not take it literally - a judgment of believers and unbelievers together. (That is not crucial for my position at all. Just makes sense to me.) And John 5:24 tells us that no believer will come into judgment - the kind that will send them to hell - condemn them:

    Believers simply will NOT be judged-condemned. God cannot contradict Himelf. There will be a "judgment seat of Christ" for believers, but the Greek word there is not KRISIS ("judgment"), but BEMA. That is where we will be "evaluated" to determine what rewards we will receive... not condemned.

    God's Word does not contradict itself. Believers will never be judged based on their works IOT gain eternal life. So IMO rather than having several different judgments at different times it is more likely, again - just IMO, that this is just referring to how God will deal with survivors of the tribulation period together - but actually IMO those believers who survive the tribulation period will appear at the bema seat of Christ, just as those who were raptured or died before the tribulation period, and as the end of Revelation 19 tells us - those unbelievers (who received the mark of the beast then) who survive the tribulation period were killed and will be judged later and then tossed into the lake of fire - after the millenium. Just some thoughts on the eschatology here.

    Perhaps there was some sort of special judgment (the judgment of the sheep and the goats spoken of here - in this parable) for those who mistreated the Messiah (actually, they did so by mistreating His people) which is then separate from the GWT judgment. Most theologians think so. Could be. I have no issue with that.

    Now we know that whether those who receive the mark of the beast endure the tribulation or not, they will be sent to the lake of fire - eventually. So this is really an eschatalogical question, not so much a soteriological one. And I do not want to make a strong stand regarding all these judgments. (IOW, it really is an issue regarding the end times, not regarding how we gain eternal life.)

    So to summarize: what Jesus was saying in Matthew 24:13 was that only faithful believers would survive the tribulation. Unfaithful believers would die physically during the tribulation. If that context is considered for this parable, we would conclude that there can be no contradiction of what He has just said in an earlier parable, right?

    I'm not clear on how all of the judgments fit in here since the GWT judgment occurs at the end of the 1000-year millineal kingdom reign of our Savior. But I am confident that God would not say in one place that we are saved by faith in Christ, and in another that we are saved based on how we treat the Israelites during the tribulation. Surely a different "saved" is being referred to. SOTERIA as used in the NT usually does NOT refer to "gaining eternal life" salvation (justification). Notice how Jesus concludes His parable:

    Those who mistreated His beloved Israel will receive eternal punishment (because ultimately, they did not receive Christ through faith), but the "righteous" will gain eternal life. Now we are all (Christians) "righteous" (justified - declared by God to be righteous, and genuinely treated as righteous) based on our faith alone, are we not? So, yes, we ARE righteous. The same will be true of all those who trust in Christ during the tribulation period. Their righteousness will not be based on giving a glass of water to a persecuted Jew, but upon their faith in Christ. But those who have trusted in Christ then WILL receive rewards based on such good works as giving a glass of water...

    This sort of approach I've taken does help explain why ALL of the sheep are praised at the judgment of the Gentiles/nations, like I said before. But it also helps explain why every person at that judgment who was not faithful to God can be assumed to be an unbeliever. This is the key to understanding this passage, IMO - recognizing that this is a special time period, and that EVERY believer who survives those intense times will be marked by faithfulness. But we should not try to apply truth regarding the 7-yr. tribulation period to life now in general. Today many believers are not unfaithful and yet survive to live for quite some time here on this planet...

    Bottom line: this is speaking about the tribulation period, and we are not in the tribulation period now, so it simply doesn't apply to us.

    Another bottom line: does this passage in any way deny that entrance into the kingdom is based upon faith in Christ alone? No, it does not. This passage is simply dealing with survivors of the tribulation period. We cannot ignore that crucial fact.

    FA
     
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Hi marco,

    We love Ephesians 2:8-9 and rightly so:

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    don't forget Verse 10

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    When works are the object of God's judgment it seems that the source and motivation of those works is the criteria.

    Are they works which God is doing through us as His loving children or pharisaical "good works" of the flesh trusting in self, boastful, to be seen, to appear "righteous", etc?

    Hebrews 4
    13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

    Luke 18:9-14.

    HankD
     
  17. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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  18. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    StraightAndNarrow,

    Well say. Amen. [​IMG]

    I agree with you. Not because of your view or opinion. I understand Matthew chapter 24 and 25 very clear. It always apply to us as followers. Obivously, these are speaking of conditional salvation with warnings. We cannot afford to neglect Christ's words of Matthew 24 and 25. But, also, throughout whole of the Bible too. Christ commands us, that we ought be endure all the way throughout our life till we die or Christ comes according to Matt. 10:22; & 24:13. Or if we do not endure in the middle of our life, then we shall not be saved. That why we must be faithful all the way till the end. That is not easy. Most will not enter into the narrow gate to make it - Matt. 7:13-14.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  19. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Marco
    Matthew 25 does not concern the Church, it is the judgment of the nations on earth when the "Son of Man" or Messiah returns to redeem Israel. When Jesus returns as Israel's Messiah he will gather all the nations and individually judge people for the way they treated his "brothers" during the Tribulation (35-36; 40).

    Jews will be dispersed to the nations one more time when the Antichrist comes to power, "they will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations" (Lk. 21:24).

    The basis for judgment of the Gentiles will be on how they treated the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble. If they invited them in and fed and clothe them, if they look after them in sickness and visited them in prison, they will be left on earth to enter the kingdom (v.34).

    Gentiles who did not show love to God's people and mistreated them will be taken "away to eternal punishment" (41,46).

    The righteous sheep will enter the kingdom in natural bodies and receive eternal life.

    In the OT God's people were required to have faith in God combined with works; during the Church age, faith only in Christ. During the Tribulation faith and works will be reinstated, the tribulation saints will wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb through martyrdom (Rev. 7:14) and those who survive the Tribulation will be required to have faith and favorable conduct towards His brothers.

    Old Testament - faith in God + works.
    Church Age - faith in Christ only.
    Tribulation - faith in God + works.
     
  20. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Pnut, that is silly. Matthew 25 is only concerning the coming judgment of God's people. No one is going to enter the kingdom without being a believer.

    John 3:3-5
    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
     
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