Salvation Question....

True.

The issue is what are the essentials of the gospel and what could prevent Holy Spirit of bringing someone to salvation if the essentials are present along with some misunderstandings.

You seem to believe that the gospel must be presented in exactly a certain way, saying exactly the words you believe must be said and if not, Holy Spirit is prevented from accomplishing the purpose of God in bringing a person to salvation.

Paul spoke directly to this issue in 1 Cor. 3.

Paul spoke of other teachers building a fellowship/following upon the foundation of Christ and Him crucified. The foundation must be there, but what is built upon the foundation will be tested and the truth will be revealed.

You are missing the point or just intentionally being ugly. I understand and deeply appreciate the importance of the truth of the gospel.

I also understand that people are brought to faith through the power of Holy Spirit and they often come to salvation with misunderstandings and down right ignorance.

peace to youraying:

 

I don't see anyone arguing otherwise in this thread.

The question is: Can Holy Spirit bring someone to salvation if they have a misunderstanding of the role of baptism?

If a person believes (falsely) that baptism is necessary to complete their salvation, can Holy Spirit still bring them to salvation and convict them of their error concerning baptism as they mature in their faith?

peace to youraying:

 

No JD, the question is - Will the Holy Spirit use false/corrupt gospel to save them?

 

Yes, it happens all the time.

 

Agreed

peace to youraying:

 

If a lost person is convinced by someone that water baptism is necessary for salvation, the person will not get saved. He will end up with reformation instead of salvation. Satan can use a reformed man to do a lot of damage since he will blend right in with Christians. The reformed man can still get saved though if he comes to the knowledge of the truth.

 

DeafPosttrib I agree that some can lose their salvation. However a Christian cannot. You appear to have misunderstood what the bible teaches about righteousness, justification and eternal security. This is not a thread on those 3 things though.

 

I cannot understand some of the stuff posted on this thread. Some of it sounds likes works salvation.

Before the holy Spirit regenerates us we are all dead in sin, ignorant of the real truths of God. Consider the state of the unregenerate man as described by the Second London Confession of Faith and John Dagg, a prominent Southern Baptist of the 19th Century:

The Second London Confession of Faith of 1689 states concerning the natural state of man [Lumpkin, page 264]:

“Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as a natural man, being altogether adverse from good, and dead in sin is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.”

John Dagg [Manual of Theology, page 322] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

Again John Dagg [page 277] notes:

“In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect.”

Now consider the state of the man after regeneration by the Holy Spirit as described by John Dagg [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]:

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

The point is that unregenerate men cannot have the correct belief with respect to God because they are spiritual dead. Once a person is regenerated, given the gift of faith to believe in the saving work of Jesus Christ, hopefully he will be led to the truth by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

However, God does not open our skulls and pour in the truth. That truth comes only through diligent study and can be corrupted depending upon the communion with which we are associated.

If I am associated with a communion that believes in the necessity of baptism for salvation I may be led astray. If I am associated in a communion that believes that one can lose his salvation, undoing the work of the Triune God then I may be led astray. If I am associated with a communion that constantly harps on the "rapture" I may be led astray.

 

OldRegular I admit my positions are a little different. Im dispy. However when it comes to the church age I think I line up with a lot of folks on this board. In the church age a person is saved by grace through faith alone. He is eternally secure and can not lose his salvation. There is no doubt that some folks spoken of in the bible will have to endure to the end. If that is the case, that involves works. If works are necessary, that puts responsibily on man and of course man can fail. If he fails he will lose it. I believe that is how it will be in the tribulation period. If a man in the trib is going to enter the millenial kingdom he will have to keep the faith and avoid the mark of the beast.

I know from your previous post that you dont believe in the trib or 1000 year eathly reign of Christ. I just thought Id post this so i wouldnt be so mysterious here on BB.

 

I agree that a person is saved by grace through faith and that faith is the gift of God. There is nothing that can undo the work of the Triune God in the salvation of Man.

 

So Holy Spirit cannot bring a person to salvation if someone has convinced him baptism in necessary for salvation.

I disagree. It is not up to the man who wills or the man who runs but God who shows mercy.



peace to youraying:

 

God decides who he will have mercy on. I dont see individual salvation in that verse. Mercy and salvation are not the same thing. Election and salvation are not the same either.

Our justification is based on the righteousness we have. There is the righteousness of God. God has a standard of righteousness that we must meet in order to be justified. To meet the requirement we are to live a sinless life.

Then there is our own righteousness or self righteousness which is the righteousness we earn during our earthly life in this body. Of course since we have all sinned our righteousness is rejected by God since it dosent meet the standard he has set.

Then there is the righteousness of Christ. Christ is reffered to as the second Adam. Like the first Adam, Christ acted for the human race. He led a sinless life. This righteousness of Christ is available to all in the form of a free gift. We can cast off our own righteousness and recieve Christ righteousness. You can not have both however or you can not divide these righteousnesses. For example you cant keep 10% of your own and use 90% of Christ's. If someone believes water baptism is necessary for salvation, he will attempt to hang on to some of his own righteousness. If he does this he will not get saved for he has not placed his complete trust in Christ. My trust is in the sinless life Christ led, for me or in my place, PLUS NOTHING. The righteouseness of Christ is imputed to us at the moment we believe or place our trust in him for salvation.

Maybe a good way to show that salvation and water baptism are seperate is to consider a high school graduate. The graduate was given a requirement to meet in order to recieve his h.s. diploma. He was told he needed 24 credits to graduate. The last day of his senior year has just expired and he has earned all 24 credits. He has met the requirement. The diploma is now his although he hasnt recieved it yet for the graduation ceremony hasnt taken place yet. There are a few reasons a graduation ceremony is held. One would be that it is a public announcement that an individual has completed his requirements necessary to graduate from h.s. However attending the ceremony was not part of the requirement. Remember the work has already been done.

The day before the graduation ceremony the young man is in an awful car wreck and has lost his life. Would the young man be considered a h.s. graduate? Of course he would. Why? because the work has already been done and the requirement met, even though he did not make the graduation ceremony.

So water baptism would be similar to the graduation ceremony.

I just had a thought while typing this. Wouldn't it have been nice to have had someone attend h.s. for 12 years, in your place? That same someone would earn all 24 credits for you and then the 24 credits would be imputed to without you having to lift a finger.

 

Wonderful. How much of Romans did you understand when you were saved? How much did you understand about justification, righteousness, etc., when Holy Spirit convicted you of sin, brought you to salvation and gave you faith in Jesus Christ?

peace to youraying:

 

canadyjd where I went into righteousness and justification, that wasnt aimed at you. That was to help any readers out there that may not understand why water baptism is not required to be saved.

Of course I understood very little of Romans before salvation. The circumstances in my life showed me my need for God. I had a will to go to heaven but figured I had to work my way there. The Holy Spirit drew me to the bible. Showed me through the word that I was a lost sinner unable to save my self. That my good works were unacceptable. That Christ died and shed his blood for my sins. The blood would wash my sins away. That if I would believe in him and ask him to save me, he would. Then I would have eternal life.

I believe the Holy Spirit shed enough light for me to get me to that point but I don't believe I was regenerated until I believed that what Christ did for me was actually done, believed that he was able to save me and believed that he would save me. I understood water baptisim had no part in saving me. In fact I was saved at 15 and I put off water baptisim for 10 long years. I was convicted at every church service I attended for 10 years but was just to shy to go forward. During those 10 years I knew I would go to heaven if I died even though I had not been baptized. If I wasnt 100% sure of that fact I garruntee you I would have been baptized as soon as possible.

So to sum it up, I would not have gotten saved at that time had I put any trust whatsoever in water baptisim for salvation.

Now I know you will dissagree with the point in time I was regenerated but I believe I have stated it accurrately.

 

Election and salvation are not the same, however, God will bring the elect, and only the elect, to salvation in Jesus Christ.

Frankly the above is nonsense. Can you present one verse of Scripture in support?

 

As far as I can see, no one in this thread has stated a belief that baptism saves someone.

The question is, what if you have a misunderstanding on the issue. Is Holy Spirit able to bring someone to salvation that has misunderstandings about the role of baptism, and then correct them of their error as they mature in their faith?

This is a perfect example.

Even though you have a continuing misunderstanding concerning when Holy Spirit regenerated you, He still brought you to salvation and keeps you to this day. One day, soon perhaps, Holy Spirit may convict you of the truth that you were regenerated by His power before you were able to come to Jesus in faith (which God gave you as a gift as well).:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

Have you ever heard Christians say something like " When I die and stand before God he will look at me and see Jesus". ? They say this because they understand something that is very important. They understand that Jesus has a body here on this earth. This body consists of members that were placed inside of it the moment they believed. These members are called Christians or Sons of God. Its very important that the Christian understand that he is IN CHRIST. NEVER FORGET THAT YOU ARE IN CHRIST. Think about that a minute. When the Christian understands this truth it will open up understanding.

Remember the life that Christ led on this earth in his body. He kept the law, not offending in any point. He was sinless. He came to fix the mess the first Adam got us into. If he wasnt sinless he wouldnt have been a worthy sacrifice and our faith is in vain. The ressurection proves he was sinless and that he is the Son of God.

Now in order for God to bestow his blessings on us he is going to have to place us IN CHRIST. Why? Because every last one of us is a sinner so apart from Christ or outside of Christ we are condemened. However since we are inside of Christ we get credit for living a sinless life.

So when it comes to righteousness, those who are left outside of Christ will stand before God with their own righteousness. Of course they will end up in the lake of fire. The Christian however, since he is IN CHRIST, ends up with Christ's righteousness.

As far as the quote above, if you read the paragraph in its context I think you would understand what I was saying. I was not saying that man must live a sinless life to go to heaven and if he dosent he will go to Hell. If Christ had not come that would have been the case however. If a man could live a sinless life on this earth up and beyond the age of accountability, why wouldnt he get eternal life? He would have to die due to original sin. His physical death would be payment for original sin. He would be uncondemmened spiritually. His soul is eternal and must go somewhere. Of course he is still unregenerant but so is every infant, the mentally handicapped and those that do not live to age of accountability at the time of physical death.

 

I know when the Holy Spirit regenerated me. The Holy Spirit has had over 30 years to convict me if I was wrong about when it took place. I haven't heard a word from him on the matter. Since he is the Spirit of Truth I can be sure that He wont be leading me away from the truth.

 

My appologies canadyjd for messing up your quote in my previous post. It wasn't intentional. Let it be known that some of the lines within canadyjd post were from me and not him. Poor computer skills on my part. Paragraphs 2,4 and 6 are mine.

 

Are you saying that you recieve salvation (HS) through works (credits) done before baptism (graduation)?