Salvation

Gina B · Apr 24, 2001

Accept the gift.

Psalm145 3 · Apr 25, 2001

Matthew 11:28-30

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Bart, this verse is an invitation from the Lord Jesus Christ to people who know they have no answers. They are overburdened by sin and have failed to gain entry into the kingdom through self effort. They know they are lost.

You keep asking what you should do, you acknowledge God has done His part, now what is your part? You need to trust the fact that Jesus death on the cross was totally 100% sufficient to pay the penalty for your sins: past, present, and future. Believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead.

So, what should you do? Notice Jesus said, "Come unto me" He's saying TURN AROUND, turn from self and sin and embrace the Saviour Jesus Christ. Leave your futile despair and COME.

Make sure you count the cost carefully. Salvation is not just "try Jesus" and see if He works, you must be willing to totally cast yourself on the mercy of the Lord.

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

The time to do this, Bart, is NOW. (behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation) If you think you might wait until tomorrow, be careful, tomorrow may not be here for you!

Joy · Apr 25, 2001

Bart, one of your specific questions, is what do you have to do to inherit this gift, or what must you do to be saved. You do not have to earn it, because it is free to those who believe it is for them.

Do you believe that you are a sinful man?

Do you believe that the punishment for sin is death?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ took this punishment instead of you?

Do you believe that by His doing so, He is able to forgive your sins and give you eternal life?

Do you believe that by accepting this for free, that He will do what He says- forgive your sins and give you eternal life forever?

If you believe these things, wouldn't you like to call on His name, repent of your sins and confess them to God now? In doing so, you can have eternal life-forever, free to you- you will not be turned away, and you will never lose your salvation! All you have to do is believe this!! That is it. The repentance and the confession puts your belief into action, but they are not works, by which you earn salvation. Your belief, or faith is the means by which you are saved.

Will you trust Jesus for salvation today?

SPAM · Apr 25, 2001

Bart, I am praying right now for your salvation, but it is the only thing anyone can do for you right now.

You have heard all that's necessary to receive salvation. Please cry out to God right now and He will be there. We all can agree to that.

Revelation 3:20 "Behold I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

bart · Apr 25, 2001

thank you for the replies.

if i have to repent of my sins to go to heaven, then repentance is something I HAVE TO DO.

if i have to confess, then confession is something I HAVE TO DO.

if i have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then believing is something I HAVE TO DO.

now i say all of this based on all of the replys that are on the board. now, you guys are either teaching me one of two ways.

1. i either have to do all three of the items listed above.

2. i only have to do one of the items listed above.

but either way, I (BART) AM THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN GAIN ACCESS TO THE SAVING BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST, FOR MY SOUL. AND EACH INDIVIDUAL PERSON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SOUL, YOU SEE, I CAN'T BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THAT SAVE ALL OF MY FAMILY, CAN IT? OF COURSE NOT, (I AT LEAST KNOW THAT MUCH). SO THE POINT IS THIS:

JESUS' BLOOD IS AVAILABLE TO ALL OF MANKIND, (BUT NOTICE I SAID AVAILABLE).........................GOD HAS DONE HIS PART...........MAN HAS TO DO HIS PART...........AND THAT IS MY QUESTION...WHAT IS MAN'S PART??????

AGAIN I AM FRUSTRATED. I CANNOT GET ANYONE TO TAKE A STAND ON GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION. NOW WHICH DOES HE TEACH? 1. CONFESS, REPENT AND BELIEVE........OR 2. BELIEVE (ONLY)??????????????????

IF I CAN'T GET ANYONE TO ANSWER THAT ONE I'LL ASK A DIFFERENT WAY.

1. DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT A MAN HAS TO REPENT BEFORE HE CAN BE SAVED?????????????

2. DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT A MAN HAS TO CONFESS BEFORE HE CAN BE SAVED???????????

3. DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT A MAN HAS TO BELIEVE BEFORE HE CAN BE SAVED?????????????

please address the questions.

thank you,

bart

Gina B · Apr 25, 2001

Believe.
Sounds like you're having a hard time comprehending that that's all you have to do. God's grace is amazing, and perfectly sufficient. Our human minds seem to not be able to understand such simplicity. We always want to feel as if we've done SOMETHING to deserve it.
If you get to the point where you truly believe, you'll understand why people also speak of repentence and such along with it. Nobody can really explain how it is when you feel God working at that time in your life. You'll just have to experience it for yourself.
Until you understand that you don't DO anything, just accept the gift, you will continue to be frustrated by any and every answer to your question. There is only one, which has been repeated to you. Accept the gift. That's it.
Seeing that you've not been satisfied with the answers you've received here, why not go to the source instead? Pray and ask God what is right. Do it with a sincere and honest heart. He'll answer you. Perhaps he already has, through this board, and you just can't accept it. Good luck on your spiritual journey.
Gina

DocCas · Apr 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bart:
1. DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT A MAN HAS TO REPENT BEFORE HE CAN BE SAVED?????????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

The Great Commission in Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2. DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT A MAN HAS TO CONFESS BEFORE HE CAN BE SAVED???????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>3. DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THAT A MAN HAS TO BELIEVE BEFORE HE CAN BE SAVED?????????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And the last thing you must be aware of that you can do none of these things on your own.

You cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws you: John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

You cannot believe unless God gives you the gift of faith. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You cannot repent unless God gives you the gift of repentance. 2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

The best place to be to receive these gifts is where God is. Go to a good Baptist church and sit under the preaching of the word of God. Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God bless as you study His word and grow closer to Him.

[ April 25, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]

Whey · Apr 25, 2001

To my way of thinking, Repent=Belief to the lost man. You see to repent you must change your mind. The lost man did not believe in Christ so when he repents (changes to belief) he is saved.

So call it anything you want. But to repent of unbelief is to be a believer.

Now...if you want to talk about repenting of SINS well that comes after you believe. Why would a lost man who does not believe in Christ care a hoot about turning from his sinful ways (repenting of sin)

Just using the term repent, is very confusing. Some seem to be interchanging "repent from unbelief" and "repent from sins." They are NOT the same.

Whey.

PS I can find no instance in scripture where a man is told to become sinless before he can be saved. So.....repenting from sin cannot be a prerequisite to salvation. Becoming sinless only occurs AFTER salvation and even then it is not to perfection.

bart · Apr 26, 2001

i have recieved 3 messages that told me to look at the board, but when i look, nothing is showing. i know i have messages, but i can't see them. any suggestions..........my personal email is [email protected]

bart · Apr 26, 2001

i have found out what i was doing wrong on reading the messages............

THANK YOU THOMAS CASSIDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GINA, LET ME EXPLAIN WHY I AM HAVING A HARD TIME COMPREHENDING THE ANSWERS I HAVE BEEN GETTING.....................BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT CONSISTANT WITH EACH OTHER!!!!!I HAVE EXPLAINED THIS TIME REPEATEDLY. I GET ONE ANSWER ONE TIME AND A DIFFERENT ANSWER THE NEXT TIME.

NOW AFTER A MAN HAS BEEN SAVED, WHAT MUST HE DO TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE BAPTIST CHURCH???????????

THOMAS CASSIDY SAID THE BEST PLACE TO GO TO HEAR ALL THESE THINGS IS WHERE GOD IS. "GO TO A GOOD BAPTIST CHURCH AND SIT UNDER THE PREACHING OF THE WORD OF GOD"............IS THE BAPTIST CHURCH THE ONLY CHURCH THAT GOD IS AT?????????

I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION:

Romans 10:9---that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth and believe in thine heart.........................

Thomas cassidy used this verse to show that confession was necessary.

thomas cassidy used the same verse to show that believe was necessary.

HOW CAN A PERSON USE BOTH CONFESSION AND BELIEF IN ROMANS 10:9 AND USE ONLY BELIEF (THROWING OUT BAPTISM) IN MARK 16:16?????????????????????? IN BOTH VERSES, EACH OF THE CONDITIONS LISTED ARE CONNECTED BY THE COPULATED CONJUNCTION "AND"--AND I DID SOME READING IN OLD GRAMMAR BOOKS AND THESE OLD GRAMMAR BOOKS SAID THAT A COPULATED CONJUNCTION "AND" JOINS VERBS OF EQUAL RIGHT!!!!!!! (KEEP IN MIND THAT "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD"......... (II TIM 3:16))
HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????????

BART

Don · Apr 26, 2001

Perhaps because the very next verse in Mark 16 specifically leaves out baptism (those that believe not are damned).

While the conjunction is a valid point, a reading of the entire context places the emphasis on belief, not on belief AND baptism.

swaimj · Apr 26, 2001

Then why doesn't Mark 16:16 say he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned? It merely says he who does not believe will be condemned.

DocCas · Apr 26, 2001

He who boardeth the bus, and sitteth down, shall ride into town. He who boardeth not shall be left behind.

Seems pretty simple to me. What is it that gets you to town? The boarding or the sitting?

Danny · Apr 26, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bart:
what do the "baptists" teach that a person has to do to be saved?????are there steps???is there just one thing a man must do??????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. When we add any other condition or requirements, we are as guilty as the Judaizers, who said in order to be saved you first must be circumsized and required to keep portions of the Mosaic law. They were adding to the Gospel, watering it down. The only thing that can be done for salvation was done by Jesus. We only have to accept that as payment for our sins, and make a commitment to obey and follow him. A genuine faith will produce works, but it is not the works that save, it is by the grace of God, through your faith in His Son Jesus Christ.
Danny

[ April 26, 2001: Message edited by: Danny ]

Gina B · Apr 26, 2001

To become a member of a Baptist church? I don't know how they all work. They just asked if I was saved and baptised me at mine.
I didn't really look at the names of any churches when I was looking for one. I went to a lot of different ones and listened to see if the doctrine taught was biblical. The first place I found this at was a Baptist church, and that's where I stayed. Any church that preaches the true gospel doctrines is of God. To be honest though, I've been to a lot and not found that happening in any except the Baptist, and the occasional non-denominational.
The only thing I can even think of to explain your other question is this. I'm not good at analogies, so bear with me, and hopefully a little of what I mean will get through.
Question: How do you take a bus ride?
Answer: Get on the bus.
Same question.
Answer: Get on the bus and sit down.
Same question.
Answer: Get on the bus, sit down, and
fasten your seatbelt.
All you HAD to do was get on. The rest goes hand in hand though. You COULD get on and do nothing else, but you first felt the need to get on, boarded, then had the desire to sit, then followed the instructions to fasten your safety belt.
That's the only way I could think of to explain it, and like I said before, you already have all the teachings down, it's simply a personal matter for you to decide for yourself. You have a Bible, and direct access to God through prayer, and that is better than what anyone can ever tell you. However, on top of that, you've had everyone's interpretations on what the Bible says. If you're waiting for something else you already have it all.
Gina

bart · Apr 26, 2001

i'll start with don's:

don said "Perhaps because the very next verse in Mark 16 specifically leaves out baptism (those that believe not are damned)."

don,..........well what about the verse after that and the verse after that and the verse after that. water baptism is not mentioned in every scripture in the bible.............why would Jesus make a statement like this anyway......"he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned"........WHEN THE ONLY THING IT TAKES TO DAMN A MAN IS A LACK OF FAITH...........WHAT SENSE WOULD THERE BE IN SAYING THE LATTER PART OF THAT???????PLEASE TELL ME!!!!!!!

let me put it another way. the latter part of the verse says this. "he that believeth not shall be damned"............FIRST OF ALL I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PERSON WHO IS DAMNED, I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE SAVED PERSON (IN MARK 16:16).......NOW ACCORDING TO MK 16:16 IT TAKES TWO THINGS TO SAVE A MAN, BUT ONLY ONE THING TO DAMN HIM. (REMEMBER IN ROMANS 10:9 IT HAS CONFESSION AND BELIEF) AND YOU LIST BOTH OF THOSE CONDITIONS.........BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN, OVER IN MARK 16:16 BOTH OF THESE CONDITIONS ARE CONNECTED WITH "AND" AND YOU THROW BAPTISM OUT

(don says) While the conjunction is a valid point, a reading of the entire context places the emphasis on belief, not on belief AND baptism.

(what emphasis does Mark 16:16 place on it???????????? "he that BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED, he that believeth not shall be damned"........................oh, by the way, answer this: on the arguement about the latter part of mark 16:16----you say, well the verse doesn't say "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned"................WHY WOULD A PERSON WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE GO AND BE BAPTIZED????????????????THE ONLY ELIGIBLE CANDIDATE FOR BAPTISM IS A BELIEVER..................AND THE ONLY THING IT TAKES TO SEND A MAN TO HELL IS THE FACT THAT HE DOESN'T BELIEVE............................STAY WITH ME ON THIS AND ANSWER IT!

(SWAIMJ says)Then why doesn't Mark 16:16 say he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned? It merely says he who does not believe will be condemned.

i have already talked about this. but we will say it again. Why would Jesus make a statement like this? "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth and is baptized not shall be damned"...........over in John 3:18 it says "he that believeth not on me is condemned already"......the only thing it takes to damn a man is a lack of faith, so WHY WOULD JESUS SAY THAT IT TAKES TWO THINGS TO CONDEMN HIM??????????AGAIN, THE ONLY ELIGIBLE CANDITATE FOR BAPTISM IS THE BELIEVER. WHY WOULD A PERSON BE BAPTIZED WHO DID NOT BELIEVE??????????
SO TO GET RIGHT TO THE POINT AND TO MAKE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR, THE REASON MARK 16:16 SAYS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS AND NOT "HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT AND IS BAPTIZED NOT SHALL BE DAMNED"IS THE FACT THAT THE ONLY THING IT TAKES TO DAMN HIM IS A LACK OF FAITH, AND THE ONLY ELIGIBLE CANDITATE FOR BAPTISM IS THE BELIEVER........................ALSO, I CAN ASK YOU THE QUESTION ABOUT MARK 16:16, WE KNOW WHO THE PERSON WHO IS DAMNED, BUT WHO IS THE SAVED PERSON IN THIS SCRIPTURE????????????????

(MR CASSIDY SAYS)He who boardeth the bus, and sitteth down, shall ride into town. He who boardeth not shall be left behind.
Seems pretty simple to me. What is it that gets you to town? The boarding or the sitting?............mr cassidy, i wonder if you are going to stay with this line of reasoning?.........i could make up any scenerio i wanted to, like for example the bus trip that you have made up in the above example and i could list 2 items connected with "and" and i could make one of them have absolutely nothing to do with my bus trip. (ie).......lets say my destination was dallas texas and my way of traveling was an airplane.............i could say this: "he that boardeth the airplane and combs his hair shall arrive in dallas texas, now which one is necessary to the arrival in dallas texas, the boarding or the combing of the hair?????????????? in your example you have made the implication that a person that wants to go to town has to board the bus but he/she does not necessarily have to sit down to arrive at their destination. here again i could make another one up. he that boardeth the bus and brushes his/her teeth shall go to town............but what would brushing your teeth have to do with arriving at your destination......SO I RAISE THE QUESTION IN YOUR "MADE UP" EXAMPLE, WHAT DOES SITTING DOWN HAVE TO DO WITH ARRIVING AT YOUR DESTINATION???????? (I GUESS IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHOSE BUS YOU ARE RIDING, BECAUSE IF YOU ARE RIDING THE BUS I USED TO RIDE TO GO TO SCHOOL, THEN YES YOU WOULD HAVE TO BOARD THE BUS AND SIT DOWN TO ARRIVE AT YOUR DESTINATION, BECAUSE THE BUS DRIVER WOULD NOT ALLOW ANYONE STANDING!!!!!!!!!!)....NOW ON THE FLIP SIDE OF THIS, I JUST SHOWED YOU TWO EXAMPLES THAT I COULD HAVE MADE UP USING ONE ITEM THAT IS REVELANT TO ARRIVING AT YOUR DESTINATION AND THEN ANOTHER ITEM THAT IS TOTALLY IRREVELANT TO ARRIVING AT YOUR DESTINATION.................................................................NOW LETS LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE. I WANT TO SHOW AN EXAMPLE WHERE BOTH ITEMS ARE REVELANT.

"HE THAT EATS HIS FOOD AND DIGESTS HIS FOOD SHALL LIVE", YOU SEE, BOTH ITEMS ARE REVELANT TO LIFE, (CAN YOU DIGEST WITHOUT EATING OR CAN YOU EAT WITHOUT DIGESTING?)...............NOW I WANT TO ASK YOU SOMETHING.............WHAT SENSE WOULD THERE BE IN SAYING THIS "HE THAT EATS HIS FOOD AND DIGESTS HIS FOOD SHALL LIVE, BUT HE THAT EATETH NOT AND DIGESTETH NOT SHALL DIE"?????????????????????? (THE ONLY THING I WOULD NEED TO SAY IN THE ABOVE EXAMPLE IS THIS......."HE THAT EATS HIS FOOD AND DIGESTS HIS FOOD SHALL LIVE, BUT HE THAT EATETH NOT SHALL DIE"................YOU SEE, IT GOES HAND IN HAND, THE PERSON WHO DOES NOT EAT CANNOT POSSIBLY DIGEST!..................AND COMPARING MARK 16:16 "HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED, BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE DAMNED"..........IT GOES HAND IN HAND ALSO THE PERSON WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE CANNOT POSSIBLY BE SCRIPTURALLY BAPTIZED........................so mr cassidy, arguments like you have made in the above example with the bus and sitting down and your destination, is not worth much when you have chosen one of your "conditions" as being totally irrevalant to your arrival at your destination.........and i just showed a person could make this sound either way, just by the conditions he/she chooses to put into their example.

DANNY SAYS
IF WE ADD ANYTHING TO GOD'S WORD................................BE CAREFUL BECAUSE THE EXACT SAME WARNING FOR THOSE WHO ADD TO HIS WORD IS EXTENDED TO THOSE WHO TAKE AWAY FROM HIS WORD........WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO TAKE THESE VERSES OUT OF THE BIBLE????????? (MARK 16:16, ACTS 2:38, I PETER 3:21, ACTS 22:16)

Psalm145 3 · Apr 27, 2001

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus is God in the flesh.

Ye Must Be Born Again

bart · Apr 27, 2001

THIS ONE IS FOR DON, BECAUSE HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS REPLIED SINCE MY LAST REPLY.

psalms says........read john 3:16,

I ACCEPT THAT TRUE(JOHN 3:16), THIS IS THE REASON I WAS ASKING IF THE WHOLE PLAN OF SALVATION WAS GIVEN IN ONE SCRIPTURE, AND THE ANSWERS THAT HAVE BEEN COMING UP ON THE BOARD (EXCEPT GINA'S) WAS YOU MUST 1. CONFESS 2. REPENT 3. AND BELIEVE

DON, LET ME ASK YOU THIS: HOW DID YOU GET CONFESSION AND REPENTANCE INTO JOHN 3:16???????????

DO YOU TAKE THE POSITION THAT THE WHOLE PLAN IS GIVEN IN JUST ONE SCRIPTURE??????

JUST LIKE YOU SAID FOR ME TO DO WAS TO READ JOHN 3:16, I COULD TURN RIGHT AROUND AND SAY THAT YOU NEED TO READ ROMANS 10:9; OR ACTS 2:38, OR MK 16:16

YOU SEE DON, I READ JOHN 3:16 AND SAY "I ACCEPT THAT TRUE" AND "I BELIEVE THAT JOHN 3:16 IS TRUE"....WHICH I DO..........BUT JOHN 3:16 IS NOT THE ONLY SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE AND II TIM 3:16 SAYS "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD"........

WE BOTH AGREE THAT FAITH IS ESSENTIAL......SO THE ISSUE IS NOT OVER FAITH, ITS OVER THESE OTHER ITEMS THAT GOD HAS LISTED.

I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT I SAY EVERYTHING I SAY IN ALL KINDNESS. SO PLEASE DO NOT MISTAKE MY BEING FORWARD AND BLUNT FOR BEING ANGRY OR IRRITATED, I AM NEITHER, I AM SINCERE

BART

bart · Apr 27, 2001

DON,

YOU HAVE NOT DEALT WITH ANYTHING I HAVE SAID, ON THE BOARD OR ON YOUR PERSONAL EMAIL.
WHY DID YOU JUMP BACK OVER TO JOHN 3:16, WHEN WE WERE ON MARK 16:16??????? WE BOTH AGREE ON JOHN 3:16, BUT THE DIFFERENCE IS ON MARK 16:16..........NOW REMEMBER, I REALLY WANT YOU TO THINK ABOUT ALL OF THESE THINGS, AND WHEN I HAVE MADE THE ARGUMENTS ON MARK 16, THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO IS TO LEAVE THAT SCRIPTURE AND GO TO ANOTHER ONE.

DON, WERE GOING TO DEAL WITH MARK 16:16.

bart · Apr 27, 2001

mr cassidy,

i thought of another one, on your argument yesterday with the bus and the sitting down and the going to town.........would you apply that to romans 10:9???????????now which condition in romans 10:9 can you ignore???????

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