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SAVED even if you don't reject 1Cor 12 and 1cor 14?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 4, 2007.

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  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is mockery. It is a total mockery of the way that you deal with Scripture. You won't deal with the Scripture that I have given to you no matter how many times I post it. You can't. You post about other churches, western culture, your experiences, etc. But you completley ignore the Bible. I am not interested in your experiences, or in the experiences of other churches. Address the verses that I gave you. Why are you so afraid of the Scriptures?
     
    #41 DHK, Jul 9, 2007
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Bob[/quote]
    The Bible doesn't change. Like Christ, it is the same--yesterday, today, and forever. That is a good reason why we don't have prophets today (or in the 19th century in the time of Ellen White). The canon of Scripture was closed by the end of the first century. Scripture is not being continually added to the Bible. All that we need is contained in the Word of God. It doesn't change.

    Cultures change; the Bible doesn't. So if the true believers who lived through the dark ages had the correct interpretation of the Bible, then we don't. Is that your point? Or did the Apostles live in the Dark Ages in the times of Nero? Maybe their doctrine was wrong. Is that your point? At what point in history was the Bible so changed that the believers could not understand its truth? What are you referring to Bob? The Bible (not Ellen G. White) is our authority--in every age since the Apostles. Your "dark ages" plea makes no sense with me. Are you referring that there was an age when there was no truth?

    The Bible teaches that women should keep silent in the church. But you can't explain that verse, nor do you want to believe. It truly is sad that your only response is to mock it.
     
    #42 DHK, Jul 9, 2007
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    It is the usual thing to take EG White's 'prophecies' about 1844 to prove her a false prophet - if at all 'proof' were necessary!

    But I like her lonely 'Sabbath-prophecy' in 'Early Writings' (33)!
    It contains her only specific reference to the Sabbath being 'proclaimed more fully' in future. But afterwards for about one and half century now, nothing has come of it. INSTEAD, hundreds of 'statements' of hers take the movement's doctrine and its presentation and proclamation of the Sabbath for theirs exclusively, with deed and title signed and sealed, the final and full revelation of 'Sabbath-truth'.

    Ja, and if not exactly so and as such 'accepted', one receive the mark of the beast!
     
    #43 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 9, 2007
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  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I guess we have to agree to differ on that point.

    And I will also agree not to falsely accuse you of mocking when you spin the texts that I give you to look at and seriously study regarding the points raised here.

    I think I can manage it sir.



    Wrong - again.

    I post SCRIPTURE showing MULTIPLE examples of groups "being silenced" in 1Cor 14 to show that this is not GENERIC it is SPECIFIC to very SPECIFIC situations.

    I post SCRIPTURE in 1Cor 14 SHOWING that in the case of women it had to do with questions asked IN CHURCH that are disruptive to the service and that the SOLUTION was for those questions to be ASKED at HOME. I.e. NOTHING TO DO WITH SPIRITUAL GIFTS.

    Each time the DETAILS of scripture debunk some failed assertion on your part you simply IGNORE those details.

    I ALSO point out that this issue is NOT a difference between SDAs and Christendom (As YOU propose in your "can't be saved if you believe this" speculations) but it is a difference unique to YOUR group of baptist and EVERYONE else - not just SDAS. I point out that the EVERYONE ELSE in this case INCLUDES Baptists!

    Hint: I AM NOT the one the decided to drag the issue of women and silence in church into this topic area YOU did - I simply QUOTE you and ask if anyone agrees that this is something that stops people from being SAVED!

    I don't offer my experiences OR the experiences of OTHER churches to prove that my view is correct sir (as you already know). RATHER I simply point to them to PROVE my observation that you are NOT bringing up a DISTINCTIVE for Adventists - you are bringing up a DISTINCTIVE for YOU!

    Having said that - if it is your desire to debate this subject (as you have in the past) on a thread dedicated to silencing women in church -- AND NOT trying to spin that as though this is an issue that stops Adventists from being saved... that is another story. IN THAT case I would NOT have a point regarding the practices of all other Christian groups today to add to that debate since in that case you COULD not be arguing that anyone that differs with you on this CAN NOT BE SAVED.

    (At least I would HOPE that you would have the objectivity and reason not to go to that extreme..)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #44 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2007
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Bible doesn't change. Like Christ, it is the same--yesterday, today, and forever. That is a good reason why we don't have prophets today [/quote]

    News flash DHK -- the Bible was WRITTEN and COMPLETE by the end of the first century AND ALL Bible writers HAD ALREADY been given the gift of prophecy PRIOR to Paul writing 1Cor 12!!

    The bottom line is that IF your assertion was RIGHT - insisting that God was NOT SUPPOSED to have given the teaching/prophecy gifts to women then would have a VERY DIFFERENT Bible today. INSTEAD as the PROOF from SCIPTURE SHOWS your speculation to be FALSE - you simply ignore the texts that so displease you.

    That is the ONE thing we DO agree on ... finally!

    You fail once again to deal with the prophets of 1Cor 14 WHO WROTE NO SCRIPTURE AT ALL sir.


    Many errors were introduced into the church in the dark ages sir.

    I don't defend any of them.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #45 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2007
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Bob, I will ask you once more. I don't want your commentary on today's society or any other era of history. I want to know what you think of these Scriptures. I have asked you perhaps a half dozen times now, and each time you have evaded me. In the light of your theology how do you account for the straightforward teaching of the Bble contained in these Scriptures:

    1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
     
    #46 DHK, Jul 9, 2007
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I have already said that BOTH of these references refer to a very specific case of "LEARNING".

    In 1Cor 14 the solution is to ASK QUESTIONS at home not in church.
    NOTHING in 1Cor 14 saying "women only have the gift of helps"

    in 1Tim 2 this is the same solution but in addition we have Paul arguing that the woman is NOT to take authority away from the husband.


    11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
    12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.


    But I do not allow a woman to teachorexerciseauthorityover a man, but to remainquiet.

    didaskein (5721)degunaikioukepitrepw, (5719)oudeauqentein (5721)androv,all'einai (5750)enhsuxia.


    Aner
    • with reference to sex
      • of a male
      • of a husband
      • of a betrothed or future husband
    Translated as “husband” over 50 times in the NASB


    So then having correctly understood these two reference we have PERFECT greement then with

    1Cor 14 and the fact that EACH person has a tongue, teaching or revelation EVEN if they limit themselves to 2 or 3 per ASSEMBLY and sequence their way through the entire group over the course of a year they STILL have an unlimited range of "EACH PERSON" being included!

    This also fits perfectly the fact of Philips 4 daughters.

    It fits perfectly with the fact of Mary, Elizabethe and ANNA

    It fits perfectly with the OT examples of Hulda, Deborah and Miriam

    A perfectly unified consistent TEXT - the entire 66.


    31 For you can all prophesy one by one[/b], so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
    32 and the [b]spirits of prophets are subject to prophets    ;
    33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.




    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #47 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2007
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  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Specific only to the local church. I will take Paul's authority over yours. In 1Tim.2 He was writing to Timothy concerning order in the local churches.
    I didn't say "only the gift of helps" I used the gift of helps as an example of a gift that they could have, for it was one that a woman could use without teaching or exercising authority over a man. Neither did she have to speak in a church to help people. There are things that women can do; there are also things that women cannot do--like being a pastor.

    You are deliberately clouding the definition of Aner, which is used more than just 50 times. Here is what the word means:

    a primary word (compare 444); a man (properly as an individual male):--fellow, husband, man, sir.
    --"Husband" is a secondary meaning, not the primary meaning.

    You have taken things out of context in 1Tim.2:7 Paul identifies himself:

    1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

    There is only fifteeen verses in this chapter, written to Timothy, written about keeping order in the church. It is a pastoral epistle written with intent of church instruction, not marital problems as you imply. The verse has nothing to do with husbands. It has everything to do with women keeping quiet in the church, not having authority in the churh, not teaching in the church, etc. Paul was dealing with church matters, not marital matters. Aner simply means "man."
    I am sorry that you havent learned to read yet. Nowhere does it say that every person has or had a revelation. You misconstrue that passage to the point where you are posting lies, and contradicting Scripture. Your lack of understanding on this simple verse is astounding. Paul is rebuking them. The verse is in an exclamatory and interrogatory fashion. It is also somewhat sarcastic in tone. It is like me saying to you: "You know everything don't you!" :rolleyes: You don't!, And neither did they! Look at Scripture:

    1 Corinthians 12:28-30 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

    In verse 28 Paul gives a list of all the spiritual gifts, or at least most of them. Then in verses 29 and 30, he asks a number of rhetorical questions all of which have the same answer.
    Are all apostles--NO
    Are all prophets--NO
    Are all teachers--NO
    Are all workers of miracles--NO
    Have all the gifts of healing--NO
    Do all speak with tongues--NO
    Do all interpret--NO

    Not everyone has a revelation Bob. Scripture doesn't contradict Scripture.
    All these gifts ceased at the time of end of the first century, when the NT was complete, and when the Apostles passed of the scene. There is no need from them any more. Jesus himself said (when he was asked for a sign)

    "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, but I say unto you there shall no sign be given unto them but the sign of Jonas, for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
    All of these (except Philips daughters) lived in before the resurrection in an OT dispensation, when the Church Age had not yet begun. There was no prophetic gift without the church. Your logic is flawed. How could Deborah, for example, exercise a NT spiritual gift (given specifically for the church) when there is no church. Ridiculous. As for Philip's daughters, there were some unusual things done in the Book of Acts, a historical book that records the Acts of the Apostles and a church in transition, that do not happen today, and never will. Our doctrine is based on the doctrinal books of the NT. The RCC confesses their sins to priests because they pattern their religion, in part, after the OT. We live in a new dispensation, under a new covenant. The leadership of Deborah has nothing to do with the order of the local church today. That is a wild leap. So likewise is the leap that you take from Philip's daughters to today. The church was in transition. Things were still changing. The Bible was not yet complete. Prophecies for that period of time were still being fulfilled.

    A challenge for you Bob:
    Learn to rightly divide the Word of Truth.


     
    #48 DHK, Jul 10, 2007
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I see - so the integrity honor and priviledge accorded to women in the OT WOULD be killed at the cross in your model??!!

    As odd as that is for you to propose -- to THEN suppose that nobody is saved that does not go along with that bogus idea is going to a great extreme sir.

    Philips 4 daughters would be interested in that affirmation from the NT Church.

    The "EACH ONE" at Corinth would be happy to know that about the NT church.

    The "TO EACH ONE is given" in 1Cor 12 would be happy to know of that approval by the NT for the free distribution of all those gfts without restriction by the Holy Spirit.

    Prophecy did not suddenly APPEAR after the cross sir AND NO SCRIPTURE says it DID.

    Prophecy is DEFINED in the OT and is PREDICTED TO CONTINUE on into the NT (see for example Joel 2)

    Your logic is flawed.

    How could Deborah, for example, prophesy WITHOUT having the gift given to her by God the Holy Spirit - what OTHER MEANS is there???

    BTW - did you see in 1Cor 12 where "the CHURCH GIVES GIFTS??"" No?? Just the Holy Spirit!!? Well then your "only given by the church" idea failed before it got started.

    Sadly it records what YOU say can not exist in the NT!!

    Not only is your doctrine wrong as it is reviewed from 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 but also Bible HISTORY PROVES it is wrong.


    My bible has SIXTY SIX books - not merely 27!!

    My Bible says "ALL SCRIPTURE" is given by inspiration AND IS PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE (2Tim 3:16-17) wth PRIMARY reference to the OT when read IN CONTEXT.

    Your "catholics are right if we allow the OT to be valid doctrinal scripture" idea is totally bogus sir.

    It has EVERYTHING to do with GOD the Holy Spirit giving women spiritual gifts AND the role of authority and leadership with the camp of the saints - the people of God. The GIANTS of the faith seen in Heb 11 are from HER time!

    The fact that NT examples FULLY DEBUNK your wild speculations SHOWING that they are completely false - is not "my problem" sir it is yours.

    I am merely "reporting the news".

    Philips daughters DID NOT WRITE scripture -- are you saying the Holy Spirit was confused on that point so before the Bible was complete he was handing out gifts to people that WOULD NOT write scripture??

    When Paul wrote to the people of Corinth ALL BIBLE WRITERS had ALREADY BEEN GIVEN their prophetic gifts -- so AGAIN your view is confronted by Paul saying that STILL even AFTER all Bible writers have THEIR GIFTS the 1Cor 12 GIFTS are valid and the saints are to "desire EARNESTLY spiritual gifts ESPECIALLY THAT YOU may prophesy" -- somthing that SHOULD NOT EXIST if all Bible writers had already been given THEIR gifts and NO MORE prophetic gift was needed!!

    How sad that your ideas do not actually pan out in scripture sir.

    A challenge for you DHK --

    "Learn to rightly divide the Word of Truth. "

    Unti you do - I will always be here to help you see the light of God's Word "sola-scriptura" and IN context!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #49 BobRyan, Jul 10, 2007
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  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As has already been pointed out sir - you have given a false translation.

    The real ones have been posted.


    1Cor 14 (NASB)
    23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
    24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
    25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
    26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.



    New International Version (NIV)

    23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understandcomes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all,
    25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
    Orderly Worship

    26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.


    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    23If, therefore, the whole assembly may come together, to the same place, and all may speak with tongues, and there may come in unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
    24and if all may prophecy, and any one may come in, an unbeliever or unlearned, he is convicted by all, he is discerned by all,
    25and so the secrets of his heart become manifest, and so having fallen upon [his] face, he will bow before God, declaring that God really is among you.
    26What then is it, brethren? whenever ye may come together, each of you hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation? let all things be for building up;

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

    23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together, and all are speaking in [other] languages, and people who are uninformed or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
    24 But if all are prophesying, and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all.
    25 The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall down on his face and worship God, proclaiming, "God is really among you."
    Order in Church Meetings

    26 How is it then, brothers? Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, [another] language, or an interpretation. All things must be done for edification.


    Darby Translation (DARBY)
    23 suppose therefore the whole assembly come together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and simple [persons] enter in, or unbelievers, will not they say ye are mad?
    24But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple [person] come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all;
    25the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon [his] face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you.
    26What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together, each [of you] has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification.


    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    23Suppose everyone in your worship service started speaking unknown languages, and some outsiders or some unbelievers come in. Won't they think you are crazy? 24But suppose all of you are prophesying when those unbelievers and outsiders come in. They will realize that they are sinners, and they will want to change their ways because of what you are saying. 25They will tell what is hidden in their hearts. Then they will kneel down and say to God, "We are certain that you are with these people."

    Worship Must Be Orderly

    26My friends, when you meet to worship, you must do everything for the good of everyone there. That's how it should be when someone sings or teaches or tells what God has said or speaks an unknown language or explains what the language means.


    HERE is the blatantly clear "bottom line" for the objective and unbiased reader -




    Whether you take the NASB model that “EACH ONE” has these gifts or the some of the other translations indicating that EACH one has at least one of the gifts to SHARE in public – either way this shows NO restriction against ANYONE having at least one of the gifts to share!!
    in Christ,

    bob
     
    #50 BobRyan, Jul 10, 2007
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  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Clearly we differ in that I accept the Bible teaching for the role women and you do not DHK --

    But the question remains - do you still insist that all who do not leap off into the error that you are promoting can not be saved?? Baptist? Presbyterians? Etc?
     
    #51 BobRyan, Jul 10, 2007
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Bob you are deluded. Learn to read. I quoted 1Cor.12:28-30 in the KJV.
    You promptly called the KJV a false translation.
    Then you proceeded to quote 1Cor.14:23-26.
    If you are going to learn to debate, you must learn to answer the text I quoted. Instead of calling the KJV a false translation and then go on and spout a number of MV's using a completely different passage, why not refute the passage of Scripture that I gave you. You can use another translation if you wish. I don't care.

    But 1Cor.14:23-26 does not make the KJV translation of 1Cor.12:28-30 a false translation!! Where do you get that idea from??
     
    #52 DHK, Jul 10, 2007
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In this post find no reference to DHK providing a CHAPTER so I assume we are still talking about 1Cor 14 AND I POST examples of 1Cor 14 which SHOW this is the context.

    SO EVEN though you point to this being a DHK quote of 1Cor 12 -- the POINT at the end REMAINS SINCE NEITHER 1Cor 12 NOR 1Cor 14 exludes Women from being AMONG the "EACH ONE" that is given gifts of tongues, prophecy, teaching etc.

    In other words NOT ONLY does DHK's argument LOSE if ALL have prophecy it ALSO LOSES if ANY women have prophecy, tongues, teaching... etc

    In other words the DHK argumnt NEEDS an iron clad "TO MEN ARE GIVEN.... but NOT to WOMEN" in either 1Cor 12 or 1Cor 14 or both.. Instead you have nothing sir.

     
    #53 BobRyan, Jul 10, 2007
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And the answer is??
     
    #54 BobRyan, Jul 10, 2007
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Honnestly Bob, you can't tell the difference between a 12 and a 14 when it comes to the chapters of 1 Corinthians! :BangHead:
     
    #55 DHK, Jul 10, 2007
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    At what point is the reponse ever to be expected to the "point that remains"??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #56 BobRyan, Jul 11, 2007
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And the answer is??
     
    #57 BobRyan, Jul 11, 2007
  18. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    :type:

    I would caution one of the writers to check himself as far as rejecting things that the Holy Ghost has said/done, and sayong they are of the devil.

    I do not agree with E.G White either, but to say that everyting she said was from the devil stretching it a bit don't you think?

    Selah,

    Tam
     
    #58 tamborine lady, Jul 11, 2007
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Can you recognize the difference between a 12 and a 14 Bob. I have lost count on how many times I have asked you to comment on this chapter. I believe your avoidance to comment on this chapter only serves the purpose that you realize all your arguments have thus been defeated. Is that the real reason? So, let's try again:

    1 Corinthians 12:28-30 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

    The obvious answer is no.
     
    #59 DHK, Jul 11, 2007
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Currently we are debating DHK's wild idea that if you allow women to speak in church OR to have spiritual gifts other than non-teaching gifts like "helps" you can not be saved.

    That is where we went after debating the idea that IF allow for the 1cor 12 and 1Cor 14 gifts to still be valid -- then you can not be saved.

    Your post is way beyond and miles-passed the point where we got stuck in this thread.
     
    #60 BobRyan, Jul 11, 2007
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