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Featured SBC Faith and Message supports Calvinistic thinking

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by agedman, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am not SBC but I have many friends who are. On a different message board, I remember a detailed discussion on the latest iteration of the BF&M. I cannot find the quote but I believe the intention of the committee that put the latest BF&M together was to find language that would be palatable to both sides of the debate. It probably is not specific enough for some. I know some pastors who are part of the Founders Movement and they defer to the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith in their local church. I guess the silver lining in the BF&M is it does not preclude Monergistic teaching in those churches that hold to that conviction.
     
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Papering over totally incompatible views using ambiguous language that both sides can claim to support their view is dishonest, wrong, and unchristian. Our yes should mean yes, not "it depends."
    Snip, Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, but only those transferred into Christ undergo the washing of regeneration, thus being justified by His blood.
     
    #22 Van, Jan 14, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2018
  3. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    The biggest mistake of the BFM2000, committee, if there is one, was not reverting much of the wording of the 1963 confession back to that of the 1925, specifically, much of the following (BFM1925):

    VI. The Freeness of Salvation

    The blessings of salvation are made free to all by the gospel. It is the duty of all to accept them by penitent and obedient faith. Nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner except his own voluntary refusal to accept Jesus Christ as teacher, Saviour, and Lord.

    Eph. 1:5; 2:4-10; 1 Cor. 1:30-31; Rom. 5:1-9; Rev. 22:17; John 3:16; Mark 16:16.

    VII. Regeneration

    Regeneration or the new birth is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit, whereby we become partakers of the divine nature and a holy disposition is given, leading to the love and practice of righteousness. It is a work of God's free grace conditioned upon faith in Christ and made manifest by the fruit which we bring forth to the glory of God.

    John 3:1-8, 1:16-18; Rom. 8:2; Eph. 2:1,5-6,8,10; Eph. 4:30,32; Col. 3:1-11; Titus 3:5.

    VIII. Repentance and Faith

    We believe that repentance and faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God; whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt, danger, and helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ, we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy; at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Prophet, Priest, and King, and relying on him alone as the only and all-sufficient Saviour.

    Luke 22:31-34; Mark 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:13; Rom. 3:25,27,31; Rom. 4:3,9,12,16-17; John 16:8-11.
     
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  4. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Well-Known Member
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    Dear Bro. agedman,

    For the record, I would like to know if you are a Southern Baptist? and if you hold to the doctrinal statement quoted above?

    Can you please answer those questions for me? If not then I do not see why or how "you have a dog in this fight?"

    Awaiting your response.

    rd
     
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  5. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    If I wanted to be a full-fledged Calvinist, I would leave the SBC.
     
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Yes to both.

    All the OP does is show the Calvinistic roots of the SBC are still viable.

    At the end, I ask the question of WHY would a non-calvinist want to stay in the convention?

    Is it not a valid question?

    Why would a pastor or even a church that cannot agree with the BF&M want to stay?

    Is not the basic document that which brings unity of purpose?
     
  7. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Well-Known Member
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    Dear agedman,

    I would beg to differ. It is not the document that brings unity of purpose, the document only makes a statement of what we have agreed, at that time and place, that we agree in abstract form that we believe.

    It is the threefold "unity of purpose" in missions at home and a broad, education for those who would serve, and other relief efforts to the poor in light of Christ's Gospel that hold us together. And all of this is voluntary from church to church and preacher to preacher.

    And you know as well as I know, that any church or preacher is not bound by that document on any level. If what you have confessed above is what you believe is the "SBC way" then I think you might be laboring under either false conceptions or some level of ignorance (I fear to use this because it is such a strong word and "lightening rod)." No offense intended!!

    rd
     
  8. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Question: SBC member churches are still independent, right? Are they under obligation to adhere to the BFM locally?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
  9. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Well-Known Member
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    "WHY would a non-calvinist want to stay in the convention?" Becasu
    Absolutely not! There is no hierarchy that mandates belief or alignment to any creed, confession, or group. Each church is its own entity. Each preacher is his own man.

    Most do not have any idea of the Convention structure up to and calling us a "denomination" or "mainline denomination." We are each church just as independent as each of the IFB churches.

    "Where ignorance abounds graced does much more abound!"

    rd
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I agree.

    Before 1925, the typical SB Church used the London document as a basic tool to formulate their own statements.

    In an exercise of unity, the SBC established the 1925 statement which also relied upon the London.

    However, by 1960's, the SBC school Bible departments has spread their influence to the point that what came about was a very weak document.

    To even get to the present document was a monumental effort in which universities were separated from support, Bible departments reorganized and the faithfulness of the Scriptures being taught as valid and having veracity.
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Part of the 60’s document was to open the mission efforts to a broader spectrum of folks that had been schooled in SB schools in a liberal theology and situational ethic approaches. It was a failure and great waste and (imo) damage done. The push back began and the current document is an attempt at bringing some unity.

    Unity of purpose must first have unity in doctrine. That in essence is the BF&M.
     
  12. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    This is what I thought but it is always good to seek clarification.
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I realize this is the typical thinking and highly published stand.

    BUT one is to understand that there is influence that cannot be disregarded.

    Usually, the influence remains benign, but can be significant.


    .
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    They are. They can be disfellowshipped if they are practicing things not according to it. In fact some churches in recent years have been disfellowshipped for bringing homosexuals into leadership.
     
  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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  16. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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  17. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Active Member
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    O.K.............
    So, do other non-"reformed" or "Calvinistic" Baptists who do not adhere to the "Doctrines of Grace" have your official permission to disassociate?

    I Pray to God Almighty, daily, that if you are indeed correct...that this is an exclusively Calvinist document, then, we filthy godless Arminians can now, in good conscience, remove ourselves from any association with you, and continue to obey the Great Commission and obey the gospel as we see fit.

    Are you giving us permission to disassociate from Al Mohler?
    Please say yes.
    I'd give ANYTHING for all non-Calvinists to peaceably part ways with all adherents of that Philosophy, and you can have the Seminaries, their grounds, their history, and Al Mohler, T.C. "that Brian", "Iconoclast" and everyone else with it....

    It's all yours.

    Now, since it's a "Calvinist" document...May we PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Dear Lord, disassociate ourselves from you and start our own convention afresh???
    I'd agree to a legal requirement that you take all the Seminaries, all the grounds, and we'll pay any interruption in retirement for all tenured professors............

    Will you then, please, become members of the Association of Reformed Baptists....and leave the rest of us alone?

    Take whatever you want, it's yours.
    Please, then, take all those millions of dollars and centuries of investment...and pay Al Mohler's salary from your own pockets and leave the rest of us to continue the Great Commission as we see fit? Will you for the love of the gospel of Jesus Christ do that for us please???

    Will you take that deal?
    Please say yes. :)
     
    #37 HeirofSalvation, Jan 15, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  18. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Active Member
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    Hopefully, they will take it over entirely....
    That's my prayer.
    And then we who are alive and remain may associate ourselves for the furtherance of the gospel as we deem fit.

    I say let them have it ALL.

    If they leave us alone afterwards???
    It's worth every dime, every penny.

    Then, we associate anew, and then in 75 years when they have no money and no converts and no one in their pews, we can officially tell them to pound sand....because what they want is for us to do the dirty work of reaching the lost, while they comfortably smoke cigars and study "Soteriology".

    They can get their own converts...
    You aren't going to get a SINGLE Calvie wanting to disassociate from the S.B.C....They'll fight for "unity" on that issue until we pull out.
    Because they aren't reaching anyone, and they need us to fight in the trenches..

    Of course they want "unity" with us:
    They'd die without it.

    Gnosticism and Docetism was heresy when the Apostle John dealt with it, and it's heresy when Al Mohler preaches it........Please let the Calvinists take everything we own, and then we can get about the Great Commission alone, without their help.

    We'll be better off...........
    They only want "unity" in the sense that they lead no one to Christ, and they need us to be the grunts who generate the dues-paying church-sheeple to fund their life-style..............

    You're right "aged-man".....the B.F.M. is totally a "reformed" document...
    May the rest of us pull out now????

    Please?
     
    #38 HeirofSalvation, Jan 15, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Last answer is correct. The SBC constitution was amended several years ago and now reads:

    "Article III. Composition....Baptist churches in cooperation with the Convention....The Convention will only deem a church to be in friendly cooperation with the Convention which...Has a faith and practice which closely identifies with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith."
     
  20. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    And it is a fact that a great many SBC churches (particularly in Texas) still adhere to the 1963 BF&M. And some adhere to the Second London Confession.

    " ... closely identifies with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith. ... " covers a lot of territory.
     
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