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SBC vs. BWA again

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by rsr, Oct 9, 2004.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    It might have started that way but they are still fighting amongst themselves. They are not winning people to Christ. How many of those leaders are talking about the way to win people outside of the south?

    Some years ago I was in the proces of planting a church and was having some problems. Finally I asked the consultant fore the SBC about what to do. He told me he didn't know and had never planted a church. Then I moved and started a local busienss after I quit pastoring. After awhile I spoke with the local DOM. After speaking with him I realized he had never pastored a church. Then I spoke with the man in charge of chruch planting and he had never planted a church. B this time I had replante a church, helped to plant two and attempted to plant another. That DOM and church planting consultant was so full of nonsense.All they did was to repaet to me what they heard out of Nashville. Never once had they ever been successful.

    I have been in other churches other than the SBC and when I joined the SBC I never saw such a bunch of politicians and lame ducks. When I started pastoring I couldn't believe how little the deacons knew I about the Bible. They spend entirely too much time patting themselves on the back. You should have seen the looks on the faces of the deacons when I told them I wanted them to go with me at least once a month knocking on doors. They didn't like that. But they would tell me about how they knew the Bible. I told them to get busy and win people to Christ. They thought that was outrageous. The church I had come from before pastoring was about 1200 and knocked on doors regularly.

    It's one thing to say we believe and demonstrate that belief.

    How about if I told you that one of the churches I pastored had a deacon and his sister who volunteered at the state level and were on some committees. They allowed the Mormon bshop to be invited to come at preach at some local events they were part of sponsoring. When I came that stopped. I got together the other pastors and we spoke against it. We did something and one of the deacons stood up at a deacon's meeting and pointed his finger at me yelling saying, "What are you here for, to stir up the community?" I said, "Yes." They didn't like that. I was baptizing more people than they ever had sionce the 60 year history of the church. We went from one to two services and soon to go to three. About twenty percent of the town was coming to the church. The chuirch was exploding. The old guard was upset that the church waqs exploding and they didn't like it that I wanted them to visit and do evangelism. When it got right down to it I asked them what they were reading in their Bibles each week. Most of them had to admit they were not reading their Bibles.

    I even wrote to one of the previous presidents of the SBC and he told me that 5 out of eight SBC churches are good. He also told me that some of the SBC pastors have never had a good church. That menas three out of eight are bad. Anyone who has been in the SBC knows that only about 1/3 of the churche are growing that leaves 2/3 that are plateaued or declining. I can tell where I moved from that all of the SBC churches are declining. Everyone of them are less now than they were 30 years ago while the area is growing and new chruches are being planted. What does that tell you about what they believe. Belief isa always demonstarted in action.

    Not too long ago the chairman of the trusteesat SWBTS who often spoke against liberalism was shacking up with two ladies in his congregation at the same time. I actually heard the pastor and his assisitant talking about how they needed to visit a new visitor because he was wealthy. That pastor is now one of the trustees at SWBTS.

    You call that believeing the Bible. The demons believe and shudder too. It is obedience that clearly demonstrates who is your God or god.

    [ October 13, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]
     
  2. ballfan

    ballfan New Member

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    It might have started that way but they are still fighting amongst themselves. They are not winning people to Christ. How many of those leaders are talking about the way to win people outside of the south?

    Some years ago I was in the proces of planting a church and was having some problems. Finally I asked the consultant fore the SBC about what to do. He told me he didn't know and had never planted a church. Then I moved and started a local busienss after I quit pastoring. After awhile I spoke with the local DOM. After speaking with him I realized he had never pastored a church. Then I spoke with the man in charge of chruch planting and he had never planted a church. B this time I had replante a church, helped to plant two and attempted to plant another. That DOM and church planting consultant was so full of nonsense.All they did was to repaet to me what they heard out of Nashville. Never once had they ever been successful.

    I have been in other churches other than the SBC and when I joined the SBC I never saw such a bunch of politicians and lame ducks. When I started pastoring I couldn't believe how little the deacons knew I about the Bible. They spend entirely too much time patting themselves on the back. You should have seen the looks on the faces of the deacons when I told them I wanted them to go with me at least once a month knocking on doors. They didn't like that. But they would tell me about how they knew the Bible. I told them to get busy and win people to Christ. They thought that was outrageous. The church I had come from before pastoring was about 1200 and knocked on doors regularly.

    It's one thing to say we believe and demonstrate that belief.

    How about if I told you that one of the churches I pastored had a deacon and his sister who volunteered at the state level and were on some committees. They allowed the Mormon bshop to be invited to come at preach at some local events they were part of sponsoring. When I came that stopped. I got together the other pastors and we spoke against it. We did something and one of the deacons stood up at a deacon's meeting and pointed his finger at me yelling saying, "What are you here for, to stir up the community?" I said, "Yes." They didn't like that. I was baptizing more people than they ever had sionce the 60 year history of the church. We went from one to two services and soon to go to three. About twenty percent of the town was coming to the church. The chuirch was exploding. The old guard was upset that the church waqs exploding and they didn't like it that I wanted them to visit and do evangelism. When it got right down to it I asked them what they were reading in their Bibles each week. Most of them had to admit they were not reading their Bibles.

    I even wrote to one of the previous presidents of the SBC and he told me that 5 out of eight SBC churches are good. He also told me that some of the SBC pastors have never had a good church. That menas three out of eight are bad. Anyone who has been in the SBC knows that only about 1/3 of the churche are growing that leaves 2/3 that are plateaued or declining. I can tell where I moved from that all of the SBC churches are declining. Everyone of them are less now than they were 30 years ago while the area is growing and new chruches are being planted. What does that tell you about what they believe. Belief isa always demonstarted in action.

    Not too long ago the chairman of the trusteesat SWBTS who often spoke against liberalism was shacking up with two ladies in his congregation at the same time. I actually heard the pastor and his assisitant talking about how they needed to visit a new visitor because he was wealthy. That pastor is now one of the trustees at SWBTS.

    You call that believeing the Bible. The demons believe and shudder too. It is obedience that clearly demonstrates who is your God or god.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Anything else?
     
  3. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    How about them taking people's money from the churches and investing it with the AZSBC bank called the Baptist Foundation of Arizona where about close to 500 million was lost on ponzi schemes by the leaders. Do you think money that was given to do ministry for the advancement of the kingdom should be used in investments and not in ministry? In the end nothing was left to be used for ministry. I am not sure how much went to lawyers. But I am sure they got plenty. The investor got nearly zero. Imagine all of your bank account zeroed out. Some churches were not sure they were going to survive. Those of us who spoke against the BFA were shunned.

    How about the Annuity Board investing people's money in things that are clearly unbiblical? Isn't that kind of like investing my money is a bar? Check it out for yourself. The former pastor of FBC, Dallas is in charge--O.S. Hawkins. Give him a call.

    The SBC is full of hypocrisy that they are trying to keep under cover. The funny thing is how many know about it outside of the SBC too.
     
  4. ballfan

    ballfan New Member

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    How about them taking people's money from the churches and investing it with the AZSBC bank called the Baptist Foundation of Arizona where about close to 500 million was lost on ponzi schemes by the leaders. Do you think money that was given to do ministry for the advancement of the kingdom should be used in investments and not in ministry? In the end nothing was left to be used for ministry. I am not sure how much went to lawyers. But I am sure they got plenty. The investor got nearly zero. Imagine all of your bank account zeroed out. Some churches were not sure they were going to survive. Those of us who spoke against the BFA were shunned.

    How about the Annuity Board investing people's money in things that are clearly unbiblical? Isn't that kind of like investing my money is a bar? Check it out for yourself. The former pastor of FBC, Dallas is in charge--O.S. Hawkins. Give him a call.

    The SBC is full of hypocrisy that they are trying to keep under cover. The funny thing is how many know about it outside of the SBC too.
    </font>[/QUOTE]OK, Anything else?
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I know that. Again, the BWA is worthless.
     
  6. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    My experience in moving to a new area has been eye opening.

    Most SBC churches are small, ingrown, and dying.

    My guess is that 20% of SBC churches are growing and the rest are declining.

    In one church, other than the deacons, every other available man was divorced. In fact, just about every person in the church was divorced. So much for living out the truth of God's Word.

    Most deacon boards don't have a clue about how to lead a church.

    If one were to remove all of the members who are inactive from the church rolls, SBC membership would be cut by two-thirds.

    I couldn't figure out why the church has so little impact (40,000 churches, 15-18 million members) until I understood that the numbers are incredibly overinflated, and 80% of the churches are generational social clubs.

    I don't mean to be harsh, but that is what I observed in one county where I just moved to.
     
  7. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    There's more, but I'll let a few others participate. Just read the Ft. Worth paper at the time Dilday was fired and see the lies coming from the trustees at the time who claimed to be conservatives. They were asked why they lied. Their response was that they were afraid the media might find out. Boy did they ever! Lies and all. That's leadership? In the wrong direction.
     
  8. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    I know that. Again, the BWA is worthless. </font>[/QUOTE]Are the people being saved in those denominations worthless?
     
  9. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I guess I don't agree with your assumption that people are getting saved in false theology.
     
  10. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Anyone have perfect theology? If you do them you are God. If not and you change some then you are growing. Most every day I understand a little more about the character of God and who Jesus is.
     
  11. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Daniel David, if what you say is true, then the people being saved at our church are being 'saved into a false theology'; likewise, everyone being saved at SBC churches prior to the split were being 'saved into a false theology'. I don't think either statement is true; would you care to retract or on what basis do you presume to be the holder of all 'correct theology' here?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  12. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    The nature of God and Christ are clearly outlined in Scripture. Only those who wish to be the judge of God, deny the biblical revelation of who he is.

    Such issues as the virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, vicarious death, etc., are critical to a right gospel. Remember, wrong gospel = false salvation. Welcome to the BWA.

    I have been cursing its existence since I became aware of it. Good ridance to that filth.
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    How deos that agree with what Paul wrote in Phil. 1:15-18, "Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do i out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice."

    I assume because of the topic you are SBC. So are you saying you are not saved because the split recently happened? I assume your church gave money that helped support the BWA in the past.

    How does it feel to support the Annuity Board that is investing in things that are certainly not in agreement with what Christians believe. Recently it was pointed out where the money went. And you call the SBC conservative? Sounds like a bunch of practicing liberals calling themselves conservative. Jesus had a name for them.

    Anything to get a buck!
     
  14. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    gb, surely you are smart enough to understand what I am saying. You quote Phil. 1 under the assumption that they are preaching Christ. I don't agree that they are. Therefore, that would not apply.
     
  15. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    I think there is a distinction between anemic theology and false gospel. But Daniel David is right ( :eek: did I say that??) in asserting that a "gospel" which lacks a divine Christ who died for our sins and rose bodily is NOT GOSPEL and CANNOT SAVE. I think Paul would also have made such a distinction.

    Regarding the SBC, I think most would agree that the leadership has NOT always shown the best example. But I would agree that getting out of the BWA was a positive thing. Many in the BWA may see themselves as "tolerant" - and I wouldn't go so far as to question their salvation because on liberal views (as long as they believe Christ crucified) - but that does not mean that their influence on other church bodies is GOOD. And in the case of the BWA I would suggest it was NOT GOOD!
     
  16. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Below you will find an information sheet that is attached to each membership form, directly from the Baptist World Alliance website

    Could you please identify the filth?


    FOR YOUR INFORMATION

    BWA Constitution, Article IV

    PERSONAL MEMBERSHIP: The intention of Personal Membership is to involve Baptists in the
    global ministry of the Baptist World Alliance through prayer, the sharing of resources and the
    participation in the meetings, Congresses and conferences of the Baptist World Alliance.
    The ministry of individuals and the Alliance are both strengthened through this intentional partnership.

    By-law Article 1:8 Personal Membership
    (1) Individual Baptists may become Personal Members of the Alliance by paying an appropriate
    annual membership fee determined by the Budget and Finance Committee.

    (2) All personal membership applications will be reviewed by the Membership Committee and
    reported to the General Council.

    Statement by BWA Executive Committee, March 2004
    We wish to affirm again for all to know:

    a. Our adherence to the historic doctrines of our faith including but not limited to
    i. The uniqueness of our Lord Jesus Christ
    ii. The centrality of the Great Commission

    b. Our joyful affirmation of faith in the mediation of Jesus Christ as solely and entirely
    sufficient for salvation, “for there is salvation in no one else” (Acts 4:12).

    Statement by BWA General Secretary to General Council, July 2004:

    1. The BWA strongly affirms the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith as proclaimed in Holy Scripture which we accept as the authoritative Word of God!

    2. Since we affirm the autonomy of Baptist bodies, it is the prerogative of local churches and their member bodies to make decisions on ordination.

    3. We are citizens of the Kingdom of God and loyal citizens of our own nations. As Baptists who believe in the authority of the Word of God we believe that all of us must be open to the prophetic voice from God as it applies to our nations and to the world! We believe that Baptists should be good and patriotic citizens of their countries, but patriotism must always be limited to and judged by the Bible’s call for ultimate loyalty to Christ who is above all!

    4. The BWA does not support homosexuality as an acceptable life-style, believing it to be incompatible with the teachings of Scripture! It affirms without reservation that marriage is a holy state and only between a man and a woman.

    Meeting in July, 1994 in Uppsala, Sweden, the BWA General Council approved the following resolution confirming that the BWA “proclaims the biblical definition of the family, a permanent, monogamous, heterosexual union, as the original divine plan for family life which must continue to serve as the foundation and ideal for an ordered and effective society.”
     
  17. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Your assumption is absolutely wrong. There are churches all over the world that belong to them. You should read about them sometime. I think some of the churches that belong are poor but there are others that are great.

    Don't ever assume the SBC is all above board. Just read the SBC papers and see the lies they perpetuate through exaggeration. Sometimes read about how the trustees lied to the students and media about their view of Dilday when they fired him at SWBTS. Good example of SBC leaders who could not tell the truth because they were afraid of ther media! What about the BFA that stole almsot 500 million from Baptists? And you trust everything the SBC tells you. Man you are gullible if you believe everything. Sometime take a look at some quotes the SBC makes and then look at the souce and compare.

    How does it feel to know that a divorced pastor founded SWBTS? He even smoked cigars too. The modern folks didn't like the truth of the picture in the rotunda with a cigar in his hand so they had it painted out. Isn't that kind of like painting out the truth. How do you like the fact that when I was on the campus of HBU they had each week in the school newspaper the horoscope. How do you like the fatc that the SBC honors people who give large sums of money and even put their picture in a paper. Sometiumes they honor them by having a bronze plaque made in their honor. So in effect the SBC honors the wealthy and rich. What ever happened to the lady who gave her last. How do you like it that Paige Patterson had an addition added to the President's home just so he could have room for his books. The house wasn't big enough for him but it was for every other president of SWBTS. Now the seminary claims to need some money. I have personally been in that house and it is huge. Don't give that money for the things that last for eternity like the poor or missionaries but instead store it up for temporal things like holding personal books that few others have access to.

    Are those the kind of things where you like to have your money going to?

    Not too many miles north of Ft. Worth was a pastor that spent every dime he had to help people. Many were won to Christ because of that man. He would put about 100,000 miles ever year on his car to get poor people medical care. Near the end of his days people from all over pitched in and bought he and his wife a lot and bult him a home. When he died his wife had a house paid for. That's living for Jesus and doing what's important. That man changed my life!!He is no longer living but his legacy does. He changed the town by his life by who He lived for.
     
  18. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    I think Chapman as well as many other SBC leaders seem to think they are Bishops over SBC churches. He arrogantly thinks he speaks for all SBC churches in his letter. Can we even criticize Anglicans, Orthodox, Roman Catholics anymore since we are unofficially being run by a Episcopal form of government? Maybe I am slightly exagerrating there BUT Technically it is really none of his business since all SBC churches are autonmous.

    I am really suspicious of the motives behind the break with the BWA. I received the letter from the BWA that had a brief doctrinal statement from them. It did not seem that differant from the BF@M. I have heard Patterson and others scream the BWA are liberals yet I never saw any conclusive proof to show that the BWA was somehow denying the fundamentals of the Faith. I think this all started when the Cooperative Baptists (who are moderate/liberal) were allowed to be a part of the BWA. It seems SBC leaders determined then to instead of seeking common ground sought a split. I think it is a shame to cut yourself off from the Worldwide Baptist community which we have.
     
  19. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    SBC has a clear-cut and definitive doctrinal statement (BF&M, revised 1963, revised 2000). If a group will not agree to it, they would be wise to withdraw fellowship/support and recommend such openly to their churches.

    The biggest "zinger" that groups are doing (since the 1922 Northern Baptist Convention meeting) is to try to sub in "we believe the Bible" for a "definitive statement of faith".

    Man, I can say "I believe the Bible" and believe just about anything. That is a NON-statement. Sounds pious. Leads to error. THAT is what the BWA is promoting when they veil it in words like "1. The BWA strongly affirms the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith as proclaimed in Holy Scripture which we accept as the authoritative Word of God".

    SBC is not perfect but their are cutting loses on this one and I commend them.
     
  20. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    A difference of opinion with the BWA is one thing, which Dr. Bob you expressed, calling them liars and full of flith is another thing all together.
    The SBC should have said that they don't like the CBF being allowed in as a member so they were going to leave, would have been a much more honest approach.
     
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