Scapegoat

Regretful to hear from you such interpretation since I have enjoyed many of good posts by you so far.

Jesus could show 2 aspects of Himself because He was the Author and Finisher of the Salvation.
Jesus could show the death and resurrection, while goats could not do so every year.
So, one goat represented the death of Christ at the Cross, while the other represented the resurrected Jesus, witnessing the resurrection of Jesus who took away our sins, went to the wilderness of the world, or to the invisible heavenly realm in front of God.
The Scapegoat didn't have to bleed because the other goat which is the other aspect of Jesus shed the blood ) as Jesus shed the blood at the Cross.

Let's study and verify thru the words in the Bible.
The word behind Scapegoat is Azazel. Az means goat, but Azaz (strong NO 5810). As for this Azaz, some dictionary say it has dubious or doubtful meaning, while others say 1) be strong, prevail, 2) Entire Removal 3) go away.
1. go away came from the fact that the Azazel went away into the desert.
2. Entire removal means the entire removal of sins.
3. Be strong, Prevail - means the victory over the death, victory over sins

The Azazel (Scapegoate) went away to the world after the Bleeding and Death of Jesus.
The first goat represented the shedding of blood and death at the Cross, and the second goat represented the witnessing the death, went to the wilderness of the world, witnessing to God ( Heb 9:12-15)He is making intercession for us still in the presence of God.

2 goats represent 2 aspects of Jesus. one before the death at Cross, the other after the resurrection.

 

I think that is a good idea - but it requires that we ignore some key facts of scripture.

#1. In Leviticus - a sin offering - a burnt offering is always killed is always burned is always substitutionary. There are no exceptions.

#2. In Lev 16 the goat that is killed that is burned is called "the Sin offering". Period.

#3. The debt that we owe is in the suffering and death of the 2nd death. Our substitute will suffer and will die in our place. There is no escaping this.

#4. While there are many NT texts speaking of Christ as the one sacrificed - as our sin offering in our place, and as our High Priest (all the images we see of the Sin offering and of the High Priest in Lev 16) there are NO texts speaking of Him as "Our Scapegoat".

These are simple facts of scripture that remain true no matter how one chooses to apply them to the Gospel.

As you point out in your post above - there are many ways to "think of the scapegoat" as representing Christ - I have no doubt. In your defense I think it is also true that the idea you express is very popular as well - far more than what I have stated. But for Bible doctrine to be solid it has to be defined "sola scriptura".

That has always been my position.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BTW this swapping of the roles of Christ and Satan (in spite of the clear rules for substitutionary sin offerings given in the Bible) in many popular views is not confined to the scapegoat of Lev 16. It also happens in Dan 9 where the standard rules for Bible prophecy are suspended so that a single timeline can be sliced and diced contrary to the basic rules of prophetic timelines used througout the entire Bible.

In Dan 9 we have the undisputed - greatest Messianic prophecy ever given in the OT. Yet many choose a tragic method of timeline slicing and dicing such that nothing in the 490 year Dan 9 timeline actually includes ANYTHING that is "done" by the Messiah. Instead the Messiah is removed and the antichrist inserted by chopping up the timeline JUST as it gets to the Messiah!

I have always been amazed at these two popular substitutions - the one in Lev 16 and the one in Dan 9 -- in spite of all that the Bible teaches to the contrary.

In Christ,


Bob

 

Although I'm far from an expert, having not studied this area of Scripture nearly as thoroughly as I should, I noticed a few interesting things about the role of the scapegoat in relation to the ministry of Christ.

Sin is confessed to the scapegoat. Sin is confessed to Christ (I John 1:9), but not to Satan that I know of.

The scapegoat bears the iniquity of the people in itself (Leviticus 16:22), as Christ is said to do in Isaiah 53:6, but Satan is not said to do as far as I know.

The scapegoat carries away the iniquity of the people far away (Leviticus 16:22 again), as God (through Christ) is said to do in Psalm 103:12. So far as I know, Satan doesn't do that, either.

So, there are three things that occur with the scapegoat that are parallel to the minstry of Jesus, and none of them are parallel with the acts of Satan, or at least not that I'm aware. However, your view of the atonement lamb being Jesus and the scapegoat being Satan is interesting, Bob. Can you clarify how it is that Satan fulfills the role of the scapegoat in that passage better than Jesus does?

Michael

 

Sin is not "Confessed" to the scapegoat in the daily services. The Day of Atonement deals with all the sins of the entire ceremonial year that were placed there during the daily confessions all during the year. Those sins were individually confessed on the head of each sin offering during the year as each person came and confessed each sin. The act the Scape goat plays only comes AFTER the actual sins were confessed on the head of the sin offering during the year and AFTER atonement has been made BOTH for the sanctuary AND for the people.

15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people[/b], and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull[/b], and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.[/b]
17 ""When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.

18 ""Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and of the blood of the goat and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides.

[quote]Lev 16
19 "" With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and from the impurities of the sons of Israel consecrate it.[/b]
20 ""When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat[/b].

So the sin offering has been sacrificed and the atonement made BEFORE the scapegoat does anything at all. The only "remaining guilt" is the guilt of unforgiven sin - the guilt of the wicked - AND the guilt of sin compiled by Satan in tempting the saints who are confirmed to be members of God's kingdom not Satan's (Judgment passed in favor of the saints Dan 9:22).

When THAT unforgiven sin is dealt with - there is NO sin offering to receive it - no substitutionary "sacrifice" -- and because of that -- no forgiveness. "There no longer remains a sacrifice" for those sins.

As Christ said in Matt 7 "Not EVERYone wo says Lord Lord will enter" not EVERYONE in the camp of Israel who claimed the blood of the Lamb would be saints. The Atonement model shows the final disposition of ALL sin - both the sins forgiven and those that remain to be paid by the wicked.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Basically once you have confessed your sins to Christ as they did in the daily service over the head of the sin offering, and Christ has died for those sin as the SIN offering in both the daily and the Day of Atonement and the work of Christ FOR YOU as your High Priest in heaven has finished making atonement IN the heavenly sanctuary -- there is absolutely no reason for you to once again "confess that sin" and have it "Dealt with some more".

It is gone at that point. All confessed and forgiven sin has been atoned for at that point. The only remaining sin - is unforgiven sin of the wicked. And for that - there is no "sin offering" just as Lev 16 shows.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Quoting BR:
"In Leviticus - a sin offering - a burnt offering is always killed is always burned is always substitutionary. There are no exceptions."

GE:
What blasphemy to hear God commanded the devil should be for the atonement of sin!

In any case, what nonsense you talk here (quoted). There are as many exceptions as there are 'killed' offerings. In fact, it is typical that for every 'killed' offering of the great festivals, there had to be the non-'killed' ones. In the Passover ther is the 'live', First Sheaf Wave Offering to counter-balance the killed lamb; so in the Day of Atonement 'feast', there is the 'live' goat to counter-balance the killed one. And the reason for this 'rule', is natural and obvious, namely that no sin-offering could really redeem from sin's reward because it could not raise from death again! The 'live' offering provided that symbolism.
Now Jesus both died and rose to present a 'live' offering for the propitiation of sin; and therefore both the slain and the 'live' goats of the Day of Atonement, pre-firure Him. Simple and uncomplicated, and respectfull to the worthiness of the Lamb of God.
What Seventh Day Adventists had to come for and introduce such stupidity as Satan being represented by the 'live' goat, only could be such gross error as their 'Investigative Judgement' blunder; nothing else.

 

GE:
"Interesting"? I find it outright offensive and demeaning the Saviour! In fact blasphemous.

 

This distorted interpretaion of the Day of Atonement is built upon the basic error that to "offer" equals to 'slaughter', whereas it is constantly declared that the actual offering of and unto propitiation and atonement is made and presented, live in the presence of God; as it says in Ro6:4, Christ was "RAISED IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER". This is the MOMENT of atonement and the forgiveness of sin, "once for ever", namely its PRESENTATION, "BEFORE THE LORD".

 

I have said it many time before, and here re-iterate it, that the SDAs reject the truth that Christ rose from the dead on the Sabbath Day because they find it possible to hold to the myth of an 'investigative judgement'. In a previous thead of mine, I referred to Daniel where he says that One like the Son of Man was brought before the Ancient of days, and judgement was passed in favour of the saints. It simply was a prophetic view on the Lord Jesus being raised from the dead to save us in the presence of the God of glory.

 

I think Ellen White conferred with Mary Baker Eddy and Joseph Smith.

 

Quoting BR:
"In Leviticus - a sin offering - a burnt offering is always killed is always burned is always substitutionary. There are no exceptions."

I just love it. Every Bible fact that GE does not approve of - gets answered with an insightful comment of the form he offers above.

And yet - the inconvenient Bible fact "remains". Which appears to be a total mystery to GE.

Who "unnexpected".

In Christ,

Bob

 

And now for more Bible facts - for GE to ignore ---


Sin is not "Confessed" to the scapegoat in the daily services. The Day of Atonement deals with all the sins of the entire ceremonial year that were placed there during the daily confessions all during the year. Those sins were individually confessed on the head of each sin offering during the year as each person came and confessed each sin. The act the Scape goat plays only comes AFTER the actual sins were confessed on the head of the sin offering during the year and AFTER atonement has been made BOTH for the sanctuary AND for the people.

15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people[/b], and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull[/b], and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.[/b]
17 ""When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.

18 ""Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and of the blood of the goat and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides.

[quote]Lev 16
19 "" With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and from the impurities of the sons of Israel consecrate it.[/b]
20 ""When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat[/b].



So the sin offering has been sacrificed and the atonement made BEFORE the scapegoat does anything at all. The only "remaining guilt" is the guilt of unforgiven sin - the guilt of the wicked - AND the guilt of sin compiled by Satan in tempting the saints who are confirmed to be members of God's kingdom not Satan's (Judgment passed in favor of the saints Dan 9:22).

When THAT unforgiven sin is dealt with - there is NO sin offering to receive it - no substitutionary "sacrifice" -- and because of that -- no forgiveness. "There no longer remains a sacrifice" for those sins.

---

Ooops! That is the SAME Bible facts he is ignoring coming back "again".

Oh well I guess the Bible gets to "remain true" no matter what GE makes up.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It was good that you, Mike, pointed out Lev 16:22. I agree on that point.
GE was quite straight forward to point out the absurdity of what Bob Ryan said.
Bob, is it the general view of SDA on Scapegoat or is it your personal view while there are many other opinions among SDA?

It seems that SDA believe Jesus Christ didn't cleanse all the sins out, but some sins are left either for the confession, etc and Satan took away some sins from the people.
It seems that SDA believes people have to continue to do some works or make contribution for the removal of sins. Bible doesn't say so because nobody can satisfy God by his or her own works or behavior.
Salvation is only by Grace, not by Grace+Effort.
Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins, but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world ( including unbelievers).(1 John 2:2)

If you read Leviticus 14, you will find this Scapegoat is very similar to the living bird which was released to the open air.

Lev 14:4-7
4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: 5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: 6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: 7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.

Don't you see the similarity ?
Sin Offering, Trespass offering, Peace Offering, were not done in 2 phases of death and resurrection, but you must remember that such offerings were followed by the Wave Offerings or Waving. Read Lev 14:12 as an example. Or we must remember that the Priests sprinkled the blood in front of the LORD as a shadow of Christ who entered the true heaven itself. ( Heb 9:24-25, 9:12-13)
Also, as GE pointed out, there were the indications about the phase of Resurrection, in the offerings and in the feasts. The Day of Firstfruits when the priest waved the sheaf of the firstfruits clearly indicate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Bible 1 Cor 15:20 clearly indicates that Day of Firstfruits is the symbol of Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Apparently Azazel represents Another aspect of Jesus Christ, in addition to the blood-shedding at the Cross, the victory over sins and death, Entire removal of the sins, going away into the winderness of the world, going into the place where only God knows.

Jesus Christ took away our sins once for all, won the victory for us, He is the true Scapegoat.

 

We believe that Satan and the wicked die for their own sins. We do not believe that Christ died for the sins of Satan so when you say that we think there are some sins that He did not die for -- you are right.

But in the case of humans - He died for all sin - YET those who reject the Gospel are rejecting that payment for their sins -- and must pay for their OWN sins WITHOUT availing themselves of a "Sin offering" as Lev 16 shows.

Heb 9 "Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin".

Once Christ's blood (the sin offering) covers your sins - there is nothing left for the scapegoat to do in reference to "your sins" because "your sins" are now covered.

The Scapegoat deals with the unforgiven sins of the wicked - both among mankind and the fallen angels. The end result is that all sin in all the unniverse is fully accounted for. The books are closed.

The Scapegoat is not what Lev calls a "Sin offering". More details later. Off to church.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Scapegoat is not a new sacrifice, since the other goat (Goat for Jehovah) shed the blood and died.
What the Scapegoat had to do is that it carries all the sins based on the Jehovah's Goat, to the wilderness, to testify what was done by the other Goat.
Likewise, what Jesus does today is not bleeding or dying again and again, but he is interceding for us, testifying what He has done at the Cross.

Can we say that Jesus is not the true Jesus because He is not bleeding now?

Moses supplied the water to Israel 3 times, once turned the bitter water into sweet water, then struck the rock, third time he struck the rock, then God was angry, because he had to speak to the rock, instead of hitting it. After Jesus was struck at the Cross, he doesn't have to die any longer.

However, even today there are many people who try to kill the Scapegoat or disbelieve the Scapegoat as it doesn't bleed, or some people try to perform such sacrifice for themselves, which happens at the Roman Catholic Masses where the priests performs the mock-sacrifice every week, demanding God to forgive their sins but never bring the gospel that such sins were already forgiven at the Cross.
Roman Catholic cannot give up their masses as it is the core part of their religion which is based on Grace + HUman Effort. If the priests declare that what they asked God to forgive was already forgiven at the Cross, then they don't have to perform the Mass next week.
In this sense, SDA makes a big mistake in understanding the Cross where Jesus died for all the sins, ONCE FOR ALL.
If you firmly and strongly believe that all the sins were completely cleansed and forgiven, then you will never ask God to forgive any further sins, since they were forgiven already at the Cross.
Scapegoat was the other part of Jesus Christ which wasn't done by the other goat as there was No Animal Resurrection in the history

 

It sure sounds good when you say it -- and it would be great if the Bible actually said that -- but in Lev 4 and Lev 16 it is very clear what a sin offering is -- and how atonement works.

In Lev 16 the Atonement based on blood - (without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" according to Heb 9) -- is complete by the time the scapegoat is brought into use.

Lev 16
19 "" With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and from the impurities of the sons of Israel consecrate it.[/b]
20 ""When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. [/quote]

Notice that the blood of the “Sin Offering” is sprinkled on all that is to be “atoned for” – including the sins of the people. It is not until the atonement in the sanctuary is complete that the part of the scapegoat begins.

The scapegoat is never sacrificed and never called “The sin offering” once the scapegoat has been “identified”. It plays a part in the final disposition of sin – but not as “a sin offering”.

In Lev 4 the way atonement, forgiveness and the Sin offering work together is explicitly -- "spelled out" in the "Law of the Sin offering".

Lev 4
13 'Now if the whole congregation of Israel commits error and the matter escapes the notice of the assembly, and they commit any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, and they become guilty;
14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a bull of the herd for a sin offering and bring it before the tent of meeting.
15 'Then the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be slain before the LORD.
16 'Then the anointed priest is to bring some of the blood of the bull to the tent of meeting;
17 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, in front of the veil.
18 'He shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar which is before the LORD in the tent of meeting; and all the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering which is at the doorway of the tent of meeting.
19 'He shall remove all its fat from it and offer it up in smoke on the altar.
20 'He shall also do with the bull just as he did with the bull of the sin offering; thus he shall do with it So the priest shall make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.
21 'Then he is to bring out the bull to a place outside the camp and burn it as he burned the first bull; it is the sin offering for the assembly.


22 'When a leader sins and unintentionally does any one of all the things which the LORD his God has commanded not to be done, and he becomes guilty,
23 if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a male without defect.
24 'He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
25 'Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
26 'All its fat he shall offer up in smoke on the altar as in the case of the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin, and he will be forgiven.

The scapegoat is NOT sacrificed at all. It plays no part at all in the atonement made for the sanctuary and altar - which represents the accumulated sins of all the people for the entire ceremonial year.

Remember "Without the shedding of blood there IS no forgiveness of sins". The reason as God points out in Lev 17:11 "It is the BLOOD that makes atonement".

Search - the NT and OT - never is Christ identified with the Scapegoat.

BUT if you ever WERE to try to make that assignment it would be in Heb 13:11-12 where Paul wants to make the point that we should be willing to "Go outside the camp" for Christ sufferred outside the camp. There if no other place is the PERFECT spot to argue for identification between Christ and the scapegoat. Yet it is THERE that Paul argues Christ outside the camp in the form of the "flesh that is burned outside the camp" INSTEAD of arguing "the scapegoat is RELEASED outside the camp". And that means an explicit reference "once again" to the SIN offering instead of the scapegoat!

I have summarized it in my own notes this way

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is another point were we differ. 1John 1:9 "IF we CONFESS our sins He IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins" was written many years AFTER the cross.

If the rule was "don't confess any sins after the cross because that would be to deny that Christ paid the debt for sin" then 1John 1:9 would not exist. Along with about half of the NT.

However - along those lines. Lets go back to LEV 16 - the sin offering is slane and "Atonement has been made" for the sanctuary, the altar etc. The blood has all been sprinkled and accepted by God.

Just "what sin" do you think you have at that point that remains for the scapegoat??

In Christ,

Bob

 

So you are saying that "Jehovah's goat" is paying for sin - and then the scapegoat goes out into a desolate unpopulated area outside the camp to "testify"???

Where does scripture suggest that the scapegoat is giving a testimony? Where is such a "testimony in the desert" ever a part of "substitutionary atonement" paying the debt "that we owe"?? Were WE supposed to go to the desert and "testify" and yet didn't so now Christ does that for us - in our behalf?

In Christ,


Bob

 

GE:
Amen! and thank you!

The scapegoat was sent into the wilderness : that signified it went free; the wilderness was its niche and milieu - not a punishment. So Christ went into His niche and glorious milieu of the full fellowship of the Trinity - exactly in His "being raised from the dead in the glory of the Father".
The old offerings were only (insufficient) symbols of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ.