Science vs Transubstantiation

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

In a discussion of whether science can prove/disprove transubstantion, Carson said:

We confess transsubstantiation, not transformation.

He was alleging that transformation can be proven or disproven by science but transubstantiation cannot. This, however, is not true. Notice the difference between the two.

Transubstantiation says that the substance of the bread and wine is completely replaced by the substance of Christ, only the outward visible form (species) of the bread & wine remains.

Transformation would mean that the outward visible forms (species) change to that of Christ's body and blood but that the substance of the bread and wine remains.

Transubstantiation, therefore, could be scientifically proven if it were true. It could be ascertained whether or not the substance of the bread was altered and completely replaced by the substance of flesh or not. Carson says:

The substance is changed; the form remains. This is undetectable by our senses, and so we cannot demand from science to detect that which is undetectable.

DNA can be detected, and the difference between wheat DNA and human flesh DNA can be detected.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
Carson says: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The substance is changed; the form remains. This is undetectable by our senses, and so we cannot demand from science to detect that which is undetectable.

DNA can be detected, and the difference between wheat DNA and human flesh DNA can be detected. </font>[/QUOTE]The substance of the wheat is changed into the substance of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. The accidentals of wheat remain.

The substance of the wheat DNA is changed into the substance of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. The accidentals of wheat DNA remain.

The substance of the wheat molecules is changed into the substance of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. The accidentals of wheat molecules remain.

The substance of the wheat nuclear particles is changed into the substance of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. The accidentals of wheat nuclear particles remain.

The substance of the wheat quarks is changed into the substance of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. The accidentals of wheat quarks remain.

[Insert more fundamental bits of matter here as they are discovered]

Now repeat the above for the wine...

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
In a discussion of whether science can prove/disprove transubstantion...

Why do you wish to limit this requirement of proof to the Eucharist?

Please show me scientific proof that:

1 there is a God
2 there is a Heaven and hell
3 you have a soul
4 Jesus is in your heart

Your requirement of scientific proof for things that are based on faith is a slippery slope.

If you value your faith, you may not wish to venture too far down that path.

Ron

 

[BobRyan]

This is the non-sense and double-speak that "used to work in the dark ages" but no longer works today.

The idea is that all carbon atoms are "NOT" the same. Suppose for example that an animal (mouse) dies - is burried in the ground - wheat grows and one of the carbon atoms of the animal is absorbed as a nutrient for the wheat. Then when you eat the bread that is made from that wheat - the Catholic argument is "you are eating a mouse" because the Carbon atom "is in fact from the mouse" its "substance" is mouse-carbon not wheat-carbon according to the doctrines of Catholicism.

Of course the animal was eating during its lifetime so even ITS carbon atoms were "coming" from other sources and "PRESTO" now the mouse is not "an animal in SUBSTANCE" since its carbon atoms were fruit-vegetable or other-bird-carbon-atoms.

So when the bread "changes" it is meant that when you see the carbon atom - it is the carbon atom of human flesh not the carbon atom of wheat any more.

See? No? Well maybe if we went back to the dark ages - you would find it more believable.

I for one was very intertained by this when I read it in the "Faith Explained" the Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II.

Now the "amazing thing" is that the Bible does NOT argue for "substance change that can not be detected" or "Mouse-carbon" vs "wheat-Carbon" like the RCC does. They just "make it up".

Christ said "I AM the door" and also said "we are His sheep" - so if you were to look at your carbon atoms verrrrry carefully you would find that they are actually ....

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Singer]

(MikeS)

The substance of the wheat is changed
The substance of the wheat DNA is changed
The substance of the wheat molecules is changed
The substance of the wheat nuclear particles is changed
The substance of the wheat quarks is changed

Guys...we're bordering on RICICULOUS here. How important
do you suppose it is to salvation in the name of obedience to understand all that lingo?

(Bob Ryan)

Christ said "I AM the door" and also said "we are His sheep" - so if you were to look at
your carbon atoms verrrrry carefully you would find that they are actually .....

(Singer)

Good point, Bob. If we're to take all things literally, we're all wooly beasts and Jesus is
a wooden entry way. Or is that a metal door? Being one who raises sheep, I may have
to start considering them as cousins now. A shame, because I've always liked mutton.
But then if we can actually eat Jesus' flesh and blood, why not our own cousins...!
My geneaology has not exposed any cannibalism that I can think of.

 

[Kathryn]

As St. Paul told the Christians at Ephesia:

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened , so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (Ephesians 1:18)

God Bless

 

[A_Christian]

Do this in "memory" of me.

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Why do you wish to limit this requirement of proof to the Eucharist?

Please show me scientific proof that:

1 there is a God
2 there is a Heaven and hell
3 you have a soul
4 Jesus is in your heart

These things are not physical, like DNA and the substance of bread or flesh, and are therefore not able to be proven/disproven by science. A change in matter, however, being physical, is able to be proven/disproven by science.

All who claim to be Christians must believe that (1) there is a God (2) there is a Heaven and hell (3) they have a soul (4) Jesus is in their heart, because the Bible says these things. With transubstantiation, on the otherhand, the Bible doesn't teach it - but, if it can't be proven with Scripture, perhaps science can prove it, right? Nope! Science can only DISPROVE it, because it's a lie.

The substance of the wheat is changed
The substance of the wheat DNA is changed
The substance of the wheat molecules is changed
The substance of the wheat nuclear particles is changed
The substance of the wheat quarks is changed

If these things were changed, science ought to be able to prove it!

The accidentals of wheat remain.
The accidentals of wheat DNA remain.
The accidentals of wheat molecules remain.
The accidentals of wheat nuclear particles remain.
The accidentals of wheat quarks remain.

The Catholic makes God into a deciever. "Yeah, all the substance of everything is changed, but God wont let you see it."

[ June 07, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[Kathryn]

You guys are not recognizing Christ in the Eucharist. You are not seeing that this is how He is with us to the end of time. This is how we remember Him. :

When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. Luke 24:30-31

As St. Paul told the Christians at Ephesia:

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened , so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (Ephesians 1:18)

The eyes of your heart are not your physical eyes. Blessed are those who believe and do not see.

God Bless

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
Do this in "memory" of me.

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

"For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."

And look up the word "anamnesis".

Or, continue to sulk on the porch while the banquet goes on inside. We'll miss you, but then that's your choice.

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

You guys are not recognizing Christ in the Eucharist. (Kathryn)

I can see Him just fine. But, I don't believe that the bread is transubstantiated into the blood of Christ, the soul and the divinity, and then oh yeah, the body too (can't forget that one, right?) Think about it! Jesus took bread and said "this is My body" not "this transubstantiates into my blood, soul, divinity, etc." - Where then do you get this idea? Not from Christ! Not from the Bible! Not from science! From where then? I don't hesitate to say from where you get it - from Satan and his counterfeit church.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The substance of the wheat is changed
The substance of the wheat DNA is changed
The substance of the wheat molecules is changed
The substance of the wheat nuclear particles is changed
The substance of the wheat quarks is changed

If these things were changed, science ought to be able to prove it!
</font>[/QUOTE]Remarkable! You've discovered something that is impossible for God!

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Remarkable! You've discovered something that is impossible for God! (MikeS)

Yes; it's impossible for God to lie! When Jesus changed water into wine they could see and taste that it was wine! He didn't say "Trust me, it looks and tastes like water, but it's wine!" No! Rather, the head of the feast tasted it and said "this is some awesome wine!" When Jesus changes the substance of a thing, there's no question that it's changed! But, when a lying-wonder of Satan is performed, there's always a question, because Satan says "It's changed, but you can't see or taste that it's changed - just trust me!"

[ June 07, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[BobRyan]

The RC "argument" is that IF a plant or an animal takes in "food" that consists of carbon atoms from the earth - they are in fact "earth" in "substance" and not really "animal" or "plant" because the carbon atom is "earth-carbon" in "substance".

But God formed all plants and animals - and even man "from the dust of the earth" so that means "in substance" (in the catholic view) we are not plant or animal - we are all - "earth".

Their entire argument collapses.

Christ himself ate food that "came from earth".

We are now back to "All carbon in Christ was Earth Carbon" and so also "all carbon in wheat" is "Earth Carbon" in substance.

So until the RCC comes up with a "hierarchy of substance" where Earth-Carbon changes in Substance to Wheat-Carbon and then Wheat-Carbon changes to Mouse-Carbon when eaten by the Mouse .. etc - they have no basis for Christ-Carbon vs Wheat-Carbon.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Kathryn]

What the Catholic Church teaches:

1376. "The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: 'Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called TRANSUBSTANTIATION.'[Council of Trent (1551): DS 1642; cf. Mt 26:26 ff.; Mk 14:22 ff.; Lk 22:19 ff.; 1 Cor 11:24 ff.]"

To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/euch2.html#presence

1413. "By the consecration the TRANSUBSTANTIATION of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity [cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651.]."

God Bless

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QB] The RC "argument" is that IF a plant or an animal takes in "food" that consists of carbon atoms from the earth - they are in fact "earth" in "substance" and not really "animal" or "plant" because the carbon atom is "earth-carbon" in "substance".

Where can I find the document you are citing here?

Oh, there isn't one?

You are just simply making it up and presenting it as if this where something that the Church has said?

It is usually not a very good debate style to make up positions to present on behalf of the opposing party and then disprove them.

You accomplish nothing.

 

[GraceSaves]

Sola,

Please prove to me that Jesus, the son of Mary, is God, using the realm of science. Until then, you have no argument.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Yelsew]

The Sciences, which are of the material realm, can substantiate the validity of any change in substance (transubstantiation) and any change in form (transformation). The sciences have the technology! However, this whole argument hinges on spiritual matters for which the Sciences have no technology.

Neither Transubstantiation nor transformation of natural or material substances occurs in the natural or material realm, lest it can be proven.

But, in the spiritual realm all things are possible in accordance with what the human mind (spirit) is willing to accept!

The mind that is staid on Jesus can accept that, what is represented in the material realm in the form of bread and wine, to be in the spiritual realm that, those material substances are the real flesh and blood of Jesus. While, in the reality of the material realm, those substances remain unchanged.

Thus in bridging the gap between the material realm and the spirit realm, there is a transubstantiation of truth. Therein lies the mystery!

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You guys are not recognizing Christ in the Eucharist. (Kathryn)

I can see Him just fine. But, I don't believe that the bread is transubstantiated into the blood of Christ, the soul and the divinity, and then oh yeah, the body too (can't forget that one, right?) Think about it! Jesus took bread and said "this is My body" not "this transubstantiates into my blood, soul, divinity, etc." - Where then do you get this idea? Not from Christ! Not from the Bible! Not from science! From where then? I don't hesitate to say from where you get it - from Satan and his counterfeit church. </font>[/QUOTE]Your argument does not work. Jesus indeed said "This is My Body," and then He gave them the "bread." You are the one calling Jesus a liar by saying He didn't really give them His body. "Transubstantiation" is a word that we give to what happened, just like the word "Trinity." Just like a Oneness believer will call you a liar for believing in the Triune God (becasue it is not stated in such terms in Scripture), you are now guilty of. The word "transubstantiaion" is just a word that we give for what happens. And what happens? Jesus took bread, and said, "This is My body." The word of God does not return empty, but accomplishes what it says. If Jesus said it IS His Body, then it IS. It doesn't have to look like Jesus or smell like Jesus or feel like Jesus; God is not limited to anything.

Your denial of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is a denial of the Word of God and His power.

To further show my point, the Eastern Catholic Churches do not use such words as "transubstantiation" or have such a theological understanding of the Eucharist as Roman Catholics, and yet they believe the very same thing: that what we receive in our mouths is not bread and wine, but the very Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, shed for us for the forgiveness of sins.

Our understanding and our wording does not change the reality of what occurs. We have, over the last 2,000 years, simply tried to understand this reality as best as can, using the best human logic we can to understand what indeed happens. Is it ever sufficient enough? Of course not; we are not God, and our understanding will always be extremely limited, which is why we act on faith.

Your lack of faith in Jesus Christ and His Word disturbs me. It is as clear as day.

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
The Sciences, which are of the material realm, can substantiate the validity of any change in substance (transubstantiation) and any change in form (transformation). The sciences have the technology! However, this whole argument hinges on spiritual matters for which the Sciences have no technology.

Neither Transubstantiation nor transformation of natural or material substances occurs in the natural or material realm, lest it can be proven.

But, in the spiritual realm all things are possible in accordance with what the human mind (spirit) is willing to accept!

The mind that is staid on Jesus can accept that, what is represented in the material realm in the form of bread and wine, to be in the spiritual realm that, those material substances are the real flesh and blood of Jesus. While, in the reality of the material realm, those substances remain unchanged.

Thus in bridging the gap between the material realm and the spirit realm, there is a transubstantiation of truth. Therein lies the mystery!

All I can say is that you can never accuse Catholics of being confusing ever again!!!

God bless,

Grant