"Scripture does not talk about it much."

Bro. Bill,
T.P. Simmons talks about hardening from the following:

1. God
2. man
3. satan
4. sin

 

Hello brother Bill,

If a person can have saving faith without the new birth, then what does the new birth accomplish?

Well, how about it. Let's start:
1.Eph 2:8-9
2.Phil 1:29.
3.1 Cor 12:8-9. This passage plainly says that faith is a gift given by the Spirit. See also Gal 5:22. These gifts are not given to already Christians, right....because...if the unregenerate, spiritually dead, slave-to-sin natural man outside of Christ is capable of saving faith, why would a regenerate, born again, freed-from-sin spiritual man in Christ need a gift of faith?
4.Acts 5:31. Why would Christ have to grant what is, in the Arminian view, an inherent ability that all men already have? Or, if Jesus merely grants the opportunity to repent, may we ask why He does not grant this to every single individual?
5.Acts 16:14
6.2 Pet 1:1

Please do not leave us with unfounded "implications" rather than direct biblical teaching; implications that come from the same source: the over-riding belief in creaturely freedom, a freedom that, sadly, is more important than the confessioin of the Potter's freedom to do with His creation as He sees fit, all to His glory and honor.

God bless you all
In Christ

Felix

[ July 12, 2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: Felix ]

 

Please read the previous post with Scripture referneces for your satisfaction....

Thanks

Felix

 

Could somebody please exegete the following verse please:

"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. John 10:26

Thank you

Felix

 

I am sorry Bro. Bill, maybe tomorrow when it is not so late you can understand the depth of my ignorance.

The passages and incidents I discussed, I believe all show Biblical evidence of regeneration occurring prior to faith. No one will come to Christ without first believing. Perhaps the stronger of these are the Syrophenician woman and Cornelius, IMHO.

Concerning the reference to T.P. Simmons, I was just noting that he does mention hardening.

Sorry for any confusion I may have generated.

God Bless
bro. Dallas Eaton

 

The rest of the story

Something here, vs 27 & 28, looks a whole lot like John 3:16. Also Please note vs 30 in relation to vs 29.

Is that enough exegesis?

 

It was very helpful that you provided us with the rest of the story; the only thing missing was: your conclusion on the major truth revealed to us through that verse.
What was the cause of their unbelief? or....
Who is eligable to become one of Christ's sheep?
Is there a difference between saying:
1. 'You do not believe because you are not one of my sheep' or
2. 'You are not one of my sheep because you do not believe'?

Thanks

Felix

 

Brother Bill,
I would agree with your conclusions in the last post on this topic you have made. The only difficulty I have with it is that in order to fully accept the thing which you are proposing we must delete much of scripture and pretend that it was never spoken. IMHO, this is exactly what is being done, if these words were spoken in the meaning you assign to them, that does no harm to the Sovereignty of God. However, it does lead one down the road to universalism. Perhaps the sacrifice of the Lamb of God is/was SUFFICIENT (not yelling, only emphasizing), for all men, yet it remains true that God then is only SUFFICIENT, but not EFFICIENT.

I cannot buy this teaching because it does not follow out to be truth in accordance to Scripture.

I do not say these things to hurt your feelings, though they may do so, if so I am sorry and desire your forgiveness, I say these things because I cannot see them as you do.

Consider each scripture speaking only to the ones chosen to believe the incarnate Word, list them and see how much scripture you are cutting.

Is the incarnate Word not eternal?

God Bless

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

John 12:37-41

Here is the vss. we were discussing, I believe these would have to be cut from scripture if they refer only to those who were enabled to come to Christ during his earthly ministry, then they have no usefulness to us today.

While scripture does teach that all scripture is by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that all scripture is profitable, where is the profit in continuing with these vss. wherein they are limited to their usefulness in speaking to only the men who were chosen to believe during Christ's incarnation. Here is where your belief falls IMHO.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Felix,

Why is it necessary to provide a conclusion when the context makes clear the meaning of Jesus' words? Remember there is no place in scripture where all, of any group, responded to any message in the same manner. The Sanhedren, Like our own congress, is normally split on virtually everything brought before it. The general population is divided on virtually everything. Why should this group of Jews not also be divided about what Jesus was saying. Why would they not trust their own leaders over this Jesus? Where in our population today can you find any group that totally supports any cause whatever? Not even in your own church will you find 100% agreement on anything, especially that which is brought in by an outsider. Why, they argue over the most silly of issues. THAT IS HUMANITY 101a!

When you can provide me with an explanation of why there is division amongst the people of today, and why it is so easy for a false leader to steal sheep from "sacred sheepfolds" to form his own group, then I will provide a reason those in the cited scripture did not believe.

Frankly there is no difference between 1 and 2 in spite of your insistance there must be. The reason exists that "they do not believe", a current condition of belief, therefore they are not, at that time, one of Jesus' sheep. The key element is belief. Belief in Jesus, makes one a sheep of Jesus. That supports Jesus' statement in John 3:16. Even if one is among those who do not believe, one can believe, take Nicodemus for example, or Paul. Jesus persuaded Nicodemus, where as Jesus had to knock some sense into Paul. Let's Go to a Billy Graham Rally. Out of all the people who attend any given session, there are going to be those who leave unconvinced. There are those whom the Holy Spirit cannot reach because they do not want to be reached.

The truth is you want certain scriptures to say certain things, and there are very few single numbered verses that are stand alone scriptural rocks. Every truth requires a foundation upon which to stand. seek out the foundation and you will know why the truth stands. In this case, "you are no sheep of mine because you do not believe in me", the foundation is belief or believing.

There is a four hundred year gap between the last Prophet of God, and the manifestation of God in the form of man. Most humans lose their beliefes in anything over a period of less than 5 years. If a generation of man could be said to be 60 years, there are six and 2/3 generations between true prophet among men and God among men. Thus there is ample reason for people to not believe that Jesus is God, inspite of the miracles performed by him.

Look at the Children of Israel in Egypt. They wanted change until they were undergoing the hardships of change, then they wanted to return to their former captivity. They believed while in the presence of the miracles of God, they followed the one God sent to lead them out of bondage, then they wanted to go back! Then those who Jesus was addressing who had not witnessed a miracle of God for over 400 years are expected to jump on Jesus' bandwagon? Give us all a break! They were expecting a Redeemer Conquerer, to rise up and overthrow their oppressors and set up a kingdom. Jesus did not comply with their expectations, so they did not believe in Him! AND, YOU WOULDN'T EITHER! Jesus could walk into your church, sit down right beside you and you would not recognize him unless you looked at his hands. Well those Jews did not have even his nail scarred hands, all they had was Jesus himself, alive walking among them, telling of Himself and God the Father. You would not believe him either! But if a zealot came to you seeking you to join his "army" to overthrow an oppressor, you very well could join because you believed the principle of the cause. What 'cause' did Jesus bring for the people to rally behind? No 'cause' whatever, just a simple 'believe in me and you will have eternal life'. Remember it is sheep that Jesus came for, not bears and lions. The meek and lowly, not the 'high and mighty', though they too were invited, but not as 'high and mighty'. The priesthood, and the Saducees and the Pharisees were the high and mighty, they controlled the people under the oppression of the Roman legions.

The condition of the heart of the Jews was not bent toward submission, but rather to survival under the law. Thus, their hearts were hardened. Jesus' message is so simple that they completely missed it!

 

42  ¶Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43  For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.


According to the above, it is not so cut and dried as you desire brother. Many believed on Him, but did not confess because of their fear of the Pharisees. (Note that it says many of the cheif rulers, so these who believed but did not confess would not easily be dismissed as the ignorant unschooled masses.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

John 17.2

Bro. Bill,

In your position, Christ has power over only the flesh in his immediate presence during his earthly ministry.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

I agree with you that the key element is belief. But how can you 'frankly' state that there is no difference between 1 and 2 when by your own words you have embraced #2: "belief in Jesus, makes one a sheep of Jesus", in other words, when one believes in Jesus, then he/she becomes one of His sheep ==> again, the exact opposite of what Christ has said. You are very right when you say that belief is the key issue. But equally important is the ultimate source or author of 'that belief' or FAITH.
Obviously there is a great deal of difference between God giving us FAITH as a gift of the Holy Spirit at regeneration time or us already possessing this FAITH by our human nature. And this is the heart of the whole calvinist/arminian issue, as you already know this very well.

Also, like you said, context is very important, yet providing no real exegesis but trying to point to other verses will not solve the arminian problem with this great verse.

God bless you,

Felix

 

The Context for the verse you isolated on is what I pointed to. The Context provides the exegesis for that verse. Without that context you can use that verse to mean anything you want it to. With the context it can only mean what Jesus said it means.