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Shocker! Uninsured not jamming emergency rooms

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Revmitchell, Mar 10, 2009.

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  1. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I understand; however, I believe the government can operate health care and do it better than the current mess we now have. I believe we can and should receive the care the elderly receive on Medicare, and the care our elected politicians receive. My mother received good care during her last few years alive and I would be glad if all our citizens received this quality of care.

    BTW, I apologize Faithgirl46 for my remarks concerning your spelling, but I could not understand why someone would not at least proof read what they posted. Regardless, I should not have been so harsh.
     
    #21 Robert Snow, Mar 14, 2009
  2. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    It is good to see someone from the right appalled with how Bush cut the VA budget to the point that Veterans benefits and services were non-existent. I understand the desire for less government but there are something areas American's gladly pay and VA benefits is one of them. It is good to see Obama appointed a vet to head the VA and has his wife going post to post finding out the needs of our vets. He has allocated a good increase for them in his proposed budget and depending on how Congress whacks it up they will receive better treatment in his administration.

    I saw this article and found it interesting...

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/12/EDN616E8KB.DTL

     
    #22 LeBuick, Mar 14, 2009
  3. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    You offer opinion...I offered examples.

    I am glad your mother received good care. I could show you ten examples of Medicare folk who did not.

    The difference between government and business: Government is a monopoly, de facto. They have no motivation to do a job well (if you're in doubt, go to your local DMV). Businesses have a financial obligation...both small-scale (If I do poorly, I may get fired), and large-scale (if our business is sorry, we may go under).

    Of course, there are exceptions to this rule: some wonderful government employees, and some sorry businesses/employees.


    But let's face it: most government workers do not lose their jobs for poor service or performance. This would translate into monumental problems in the healthcare field.
     
    #23 rbell, Mar 15, 2009
  4. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    LeBuick, I'm gonna floor you here: I think we should spend more on Veteran care and benefits (see...who says I'm not for gov't spending money on occasion! :D ).

    But...the government's approach when something is sorry is to throw more money at it. but much of the time, that just leads to expensive, sorry products.
     
    #24 rbell, Mar 15, 2009
  5. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Thank you for this well thought out response, you make some good points.

    There is another side to this equation, I believe. A privately owned company is interested in profit, as it should be. Therefore, it is often profitable for a large insurance company to do all they can to keep costs down, which may include denying care to patients. This does not apply to government agencies.
     
    #25 Robert Snow, Mar 15, 2009
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    A Hard Lesson About Socialized Medicine

    Europeans are now learning some hard facts of life about socialized medicine: there's no such thing as a free lunch. The question is whether Congress will learn from Europe's mistakes as it takes the next steps in reforming the American health care system.

    For many years advocates of government-run health care pointed to Europe as an ideal, noting that America was the "only industrialized country without a national health care system." Now, however, the European welfare states are slashing benefits in the face of rising health care costs.

    A recent front-page story in the New York Times detailed the European cutbacks. According to the article, Britain, France and Germany are all being forced to limit access to care. Rationing, already extensive, is increasing.

    The Europeans have run into a very simple economic rule. If something is perceived as free, people will consume more of it than they would if they had to pay for it. Think of it this way: if food were free, would you eat hamburger or steak? At the same time, health care is a finite good. There are only so many doctors, so many hospital beds and so much technology. If people overconsume those resources, it drives up the cost of health care.

    More Here
     
    #26 Revmitchell, Mar 16, 2009
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Sweden’s government health care

    Government health care advocates used to sing the praises of Britain's National Health Service, or NHS. That's until its poor delivery of health care services became known. A recent study by David Green and Laura Casper, "Delay, Denial and Dilution," written for the London-based Institute of Economic Affairs, concludes that the NHS health care services are just about the worst in the developed world. The head of the World Health Organization calculated that Britain has as many as 25,000 unnecessary cancer deaths a year because of under-provision of care. Twelve percent of specialists surveyed admitted refusing kidney dialysis to patients suffering from kidney failure because of limits on cash. Waiting lists for medical treatment have become so long that there are now "waiting lists" for the waiting list.

    Government health care advocates sing the praises of Canada's single-payer system. Canada's government system isn't that different from Britain's. For example, after a Canadian has been referred to a specialist, the waiting list for gynecological surgery is four to 12 weeks, cataract removal 12 to 18 weeks, tonsillectomy three to 36 weeks and neurosurgery five to 30 weeks. Toronto-area hospitals, concerned about lawsuits, ask patients to sign a legal release accepting that while delays in treatment may jeopardize their health, they nevertheless hold the hospital blameless. Canadians have an option Britainers don't: close proximity of American hospitals. In fact, the Canadian government spends more than $1 billion each year for Canadians to receive medical treatment in our country. I wonder how much money the U.S. government spends for Americans to be treated in Canada.

    "OK, Williams," you say, "Sweden is the world's socialist wonder." Sven R. Larson tells about some of Sweden's problems in "Lesson from Sweden's Universal Health System: Tales from the Health-care Crypt," published in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons in spring 2008. Mr. D., a Gothenburg multiple sclerosis patient, was prescribed a new drug. His doctor's request was denied because the drug was 33 percent more expensive than the older medicine. Mr. D. offered to pay for the medicine himself but was prevented from doing so. The bureaucrats said it would set a bad precedent and lead to unequal access to medicine.

    Malmo, with its 280,000 residents, is Sweden's third-largest city. To see a physician, a patient must go to one of two local clinics before they can see a specialist. The clinics have security guards to keep patients from getting unruly as they wait hours to see a doctor. The guards also prevent new patients from entering the clinic when the waiting room is considered full. Uppsala, a city with 200,000 people, has only one specialist in mammography. Sweden's National Cancer Foundation reports that in a few years most Swedish women will not have access to mammography.

    More Here
     
    #27 Revmitchell, Mar 16, 2009
  8. targus

    targus New Member

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    Health insurance companies also operate in a free market where the consumer is free to take their premium dollars to another insurance company. If the insurance company attempts to keep costs down by denying care to clients they soon find that they no longer have any clients.

    That is the beauty of the free market system.

    With a government run health care system as a consumer you have no such freedom to take your premium dollars to another insurance company because the premiums will be taken from you in the form of taxes.


    Not true. The government does not have infinite resources. Under a government run system there will be rationing of medical care - prioritized by the government. We have already been warned by VP Biden that the elderly will just have to learn to live with their health problems.
     
    #28 targus, Mar 16, 2009
  9. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    And with that "tag team" effort, we've hit on a root problem: a decline in morality in this country.

    Government folks that say, "I can't get fired, so I'm gonna just do what I have to...forget doing a good job." That's a moral issue.

    Corporate folks that say, "Money is more important that people." That's a moral issue.

    (numerous and obvious exceptions apply to above)

    Until the moral climate improves in the US...we're always going to be playing catch-up.
     
    #29 rbell, Mar 16, 2009
  10. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    I heard a lady from Europe on the news the other day. She said with all the economic catastrophe taking place all over the world, at least they still have health care.
     
    #30 LeBuick, Mar 16, 2009
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That may or may not be true but it in no way negates the reality of socialized medicine.
     
    #31 Revmitchell, Mar 16, 2009
  12. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Unfortunately many of these problems don't have easy fixes.
     
    #32 Robert Snow, Mar 16, 2009
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