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Featured Simple way that the bible teaches Free Will

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by prophecy70, Oct 12, 2020.

  1. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Joshua 24:15
    ... choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD

    In order for that verse to say to choose, we must look at the definitions of "choice"


    Webster says

    : power of choosing

    Choosing what?

    Between a number of options or alternative courses of action

    Webster says options are.

    something that may be chosen: such as
    a: an alternative course of action

    So if the bible states to choose, that MUST mean (words have actual meanings), we have the power to choose between alternative courses of actions.

    Or it's not a choice, and God couldn't say "choose"

    If determinism is true, we have no alternative courses of action to what is determined, so we have no options, therefor its not a "choice" And we can't choose.

    So choose this day= Choice

    Which God you will serve= Options.


    Therefor calvinists deny free will, they just make up a proposition to make A = ~A
     
    #1 prophecy70, Oct 12, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Only the most hyper of Calvinists would say man had no free will.
     
  3. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Only Hyper Calvinists admit what moderate Calvinists ignore.


    Calvinism equals determinism

    Determinism equals = Not free will.
     
    #3 prophecy70, Oct 12, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The 2nd lie of Satan in the garden was that Eve would be “like God” knowing good and evil. The only way to be “like God” in knowing good and evil is to always be able to recognize the difference and always choose the good.

    Clearly, that is a lie. Therefore, “free will” is a lie.

    Human will is not free. Every person is influenced by many outside forces and inner sinful desires that distorts human will.

    peace to you
     
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  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Dunno what a "Calvinist" is,
    Unless you're referring to someone who reads the Bible and sees it saying that God chooses men to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ) apart from any work of righteousness that we might do ( Titus 3:4-7 )...
    But I don't deny that man has a will and actually makes real choices.

    Also, I'd respectfully like to address the Scripture you posted above.
    Firstly, I encourage you to read the entire chapter from verse 1 to at least verse 25 to get the context;
    But in the absence of that, I'd like to point out something:

    " Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
    15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
    " ( Joshua 24:14-15 ).

    As I see the prior chapter developing, Joshua is gathering the people of Israel together because he is old and ready to die.
    He is telling the new generation of people that were the children ( and probably grandchildren ) of those whom the Lord had brought up out of the land of Egypt, that when he is gone, they will have a choice before them...
    To serve the Lord under the Law of Moses, or to serve the gods of the people around them.

    He very pointedly tells them, "If it seem evil for you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve."

    Truth be told, I do not believe that we as men do not have a will that we can use to make decisions...
    But in the light of many passages ( especially Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Jeremiah 13:23 and others ), I firmly conclude that people who are not born again by the power of God, simply do not have any desire to choose to repent and believe on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.

    Our love of sin and hatred of God ( especially His Son, Jesus Christ ) completely outstrips anything else, even the promise of death from the Lord ( Romans 1:32 ).
    Mankind, in our stubborn rebellion, simply will not let go of sin and cast ourselves on the mercy of God.

    Therefore, I believe that we as men do have a will...

    But to me, it is definitely not free to choose anything other than to continue on in sin.
    That is what makes the new birth so very necessary when it comes to having an open and honest relationship with the Lord.
    Otherwise, we wouldn't even care about having one.



    I'll tell you what...
    You want proof of this?
    I've been in such places, even as a believer, and I can tell you of a certainty:

    Try walking into a pub or bar somewhere at "happy hour" and ask for a show of hands to see how many care about the Lord and His commands.
    Then ask for a show of hands to see how many care that their getting drunk actually offends Him.

    I guarantee you probably won't get any, especially on that last one.:(
     
    #5 Dave G, Oct 12, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  6. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    If they have a "choice" whom to serve by definition they are able decide "by their own power", who they will serve.

    Then there is no choice for them to make.
     
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  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    The choice has already been made and is being made every day that we as men are alive...
    To hate God and love sin.

    That is and was our choice.

    Please see Romans 1:18-32.
    God gave us over to that choice, as a race.

    " Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25 who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
    ( Romans 1:24-28 ).

    You don't see that when you read it?;)
     
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  8. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    What makes men unable to love God?

    If they unable to have any other option than evil, that is not a choice.

    Romans 1:16
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    Yes after we made a choice
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    free will has nothing to do with the word choose.
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No one has free will . it does not exist. Hyper calvinism has nothing to do with the issue
     
  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    It's not so much an "unable", as it is such a strong "unwilling" that it literally becomes an "unable", from what I understand of the Scriptures.

    "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
    " ( John 3:18-21 ).

    I agree.
    To choose to hate God and to love sin, is not to have any other option.;)
     
    #11 Dave G, Oct 12, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 2 ... we choose because He chose us. We love because He loved us. Without His “while we were yet dead” GIFT, we would still be content to wallow in our mud and return to our vomit. (Have I mixed enough metaphors for one post. :) )
     
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  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Please see the highlighted.
    I see that it is not the power of God to everyone who does not believe it.
     
    #13 Dave G, Oct 12, 2020
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  14. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Even your fellow Calvinists on here admit to free will, just not as it pertains to salvation.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God is addressing the chosen people of God when he tells them to choose who they will serve. This means God chose Jacob first.

    Let's look at the passage and see how Joshua responds to their prideful self-righteousness.
    ~Joshua 24:14,16-19
    “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.
    Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods, for it is the Lord our God who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight and preserved us in all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed. And the Lord drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land. Therefore we also will serve the Lord, for he is our God.”

    But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.

    Notice the self-righteousness of the people. They do not fear God. Instead, they proudly declare that they are going to make YHWH there God in a similar fashion to how the pagans made gods for themselves.
    Notice Joshua's response: "You are not able to serve YHWH for He is set apart."

    So I ask you, do you wish to be like the people of Israel who declared in self-righteousness that they would please God by their works? If you think that is the way to salvation, you are sorely mistaken. God has always saved by grace through faith. We cannot please God. Only in Christ are we pleasing before a holy God.
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I do not speak for them and how they use the term. fact is, it does not exist except in the carnal realm of philosophy.

    The confession of faith 1689 addresses the popular usage of the term but gives a careful explanation of the condition of mans will.

    Chapter 9: Of Free Will
    1._____ God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
    ( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )
    2._____ Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.
    ( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )

    3._____ Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
    ( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )

    4._____ When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
    ( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )

    5._____ This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.
    ( Ephesians 4:13 )
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Free Will a Slave by Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    And ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life.”—John v 40.

    THIS is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are:—First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words “will,” or “will not” in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, “If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.” It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is “Alpha and Omega” in the salvation of men.

    Our four points, this morning, shall be,—First. that every man is dead, because it says, “Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life.”Secondly, that there is life in Jesus Christ—”Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life.” Thirdly, that there is life in Christ Jesus for every one that comes for it—Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life;” implying that all who go will have life. And fourthly, the gist of the text lies here, that no man by nature ever will come to Christ,for the text says, “Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life.” So far from asserting that men of their own wills ever do such a thing, it boldly and flatly denies it, and says, Ye WILL NOT come unto me that ye might have life.” Why, beloved, I am almost ready to exclaim, Have all free-willers no knowledge that they dare to run in the teeth of inspiration? Have all those that deny the doctrine of grace no sense? Have they so departed from God that they wrest this to prove free-will; whereas the text says, “YE WILL NOT come unto me that ye might have life.”

    I. First, then, our text implies THAT MEN BY NATURE ARE DEAD. No being needs to go after life if he has life in himself. The text speaks very strongly when it says, “Ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life,” though it saith it not in words, yet it doth in effect affirm that men need a life more than they have themselves. My hearers, we are all dead unless we have been begotten unto a lively hope. First, we are all of us, by nature, legally dead:—“In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt die the death,” said God to Adam; and though Adam did not die in that moment naturally, he died legally; that is to say death was recorded against him. As soon as, at the Old Bailey, the judge puts on the black cap and pronounces the sentence, the man is reckoned to be dead at law. Though perhaps a month may intervene before he is brought on the scaffold to endure the sentence of the law, yet the law looks upon him as a dead man. It is impossible for him to transact anything. He cannot inherit, he cannot bequeath; he is nothing—he is a dead man. The country considers him not as being alive in it at all. There is an election—he is not asked for his vote because he is considered as dead. He is shut up in his condemned cell, and he is dead. Ah! and ye ungodly sinners who have never had life in Christ, you are alive this morning, by reprieve, but do ye know that ye are legally dead; that God considers you as such, that in the day when your father Adam touched the fruit, and when you yourselves did sin, God, the Eternal Judge, put on the black cap and condemned you? You talk mightily of your own standing, and goodness, and morality:—where is it? Scripture saith, ye are “condemned already.” Ye are not to wait to be condemned at the judgment-day—that will be the execution of the sentence:—“ye are condemned already.” In the moment ye sinned; your names were all written in the black book of justice; every one was then sentenced by God to death, unless he found a substitute, in the person of Christ, for his sins. What would you think if you were so go into the Old Bailey, and see the condemned culprit sitting in his cell, laughing and merry? You would I say, “The man is a fool, for he is condemned, and is to be executed; yet how merry he is.” Ah! and how foolish is the worldly man, who, while sentence is recorded against him, lives in merriment and mirth! Do you think the sentence of God is of no effect? Thinkest thou that thy sin which is written with an iron pen on the rocks for ever hath no horrors in it? God hath said thou art condemned already. If thou wouldst but feel this, it would mingle bitters in the sweet cups of joy; thy dances would be stopped, thy laughter quenched in sighing, if then wouldst recollect that thou art condemned already. We ought all to weep, if we lay this to our souls: that by nature we have no life in God’s sight; we are actually, positively condemned; death is recorded against us, and we are considered in ourselves now, in Gods sight, as much dead as if we were actually cast into hell; we are condemned here by sin, we do not yet suffer the penalty of it, but it is written against us, and we are legally dead, nor can we find life unless we find legal life in the person of Christ, of which more by-and-by
     
  18. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    That argues against complete free will. I agree with you there. It does not argue against a limited free will which most Calvinist(the vast majority) acknowledge.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Man's Will - Free Yet Bound by Walter J. Chantry


    Pelagian, Arminian and modern Fundamentalist support for the moral and spiritual freedom of the will usually centres on one point. We have admitted that man has a responsible freedom. He is free to be himself. He is held accountable for his words and deeds, especially for his receiving or rejecting Christ. On all of this we agree. They use this toehold to argue that the will is not in bondage to sin but has the power of contrary choice. It can do either good or evil, at least when confronted with the gospel. They insist that the responsibility of the will to choose Christ implies ability of the will to choose Christ.

    There is no scriptural defence of this belief, none that I have ever seen in print. The argument is completely philosophical. It runs as follows: If a man cannot do good, it would be unjust to punish him as evil. Furthermore, if a sinner cannot repent, it would be foolish to command all men everywhere to repent. GOD is not foolish and He has commanded repentance. Therefore men are able to repent.
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus told him to keep the commandments.

    Did Jesus tell him to do something He knew he was unable to do?

    peace to you
     
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