Simple yes or no question...

Perhaps you Anti-Calvinists should pay heed to the warning in the quote from Charles Haddon Spurgeon above that Chappie posted.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Anyone is able to visit the Spurgeon Archive and find the following sermon:

Election, no discouragement to seeking souls.

This sermon shows brother Spurgeon's stand on Biblical Truth.

In it he likens the arguments we hear so often to superstitious amazements no man or woman or child coming to Christ should consider.

He in effect, proclaims the truth as it is, the doctrine so viciously known as Calvinism is more inclusive and less restrictive than any other. This is the doctrine that teaches men that by there coming they have a proof of their drawing. There is no class system, there is no hesitation. Have you come, then you are elected. (This is obviously a paraphrase).

An biography of Mr. Spurgeon written by J.C. Carlile (Barbour Publishing) includes a vivid realization from Mr. Spurgeon of his defilement, likening himself to one of the perpetrators of the crucifixion. (It is at the cross where we must lead men to, we cannot lead them beyond that point, only God is able to do that work and He does it in whom he desires.)

The work referenced above is the same which has the illustrations of our coming to our tables to sit at meal, or to a farmer planting his crops. These things are done regardless of our knowledge of the perdetermined outcome. Anything but rest in Christ is not sufficient for man receiving salvation.

I do not wish to be perceived as a vile person, nor do any of the brethren on here proclaiming the truth. However, I would much prefer to be considered vile in this present world, by a system established by man, than to arrive at the bar of judgement and learn that all my efforts were held in contempt by the Godhead.

God Bless.

Bro. Dallas

 

It is not my purpose to demean the character of anyone, my purpose was to show that those that calvinism idolizes were just men that put their pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us. Were capable of, and made errors in intrepertation just like everybody else.

Just wanted to declare that saints of their order are man made saints. Perhaps if we can deter calvinists from idolizing past adherents to their form of faith, they should be more open to what the bible has to say..

Their evidences of regeneration and enlightenment as a result of efficacious regeneration is no greater than that of any other, be they calvinist or mormon.

So, with respect due, and adoration earned, they are still as wrong as two left shoes when it comes to the illusion of irresistible grace. It is said that efficacious grace is traceable back to Jesus. I say that the fact that it is alive today can only be traced back to John Calvin and his overwhelming threat of mental and physical harm to those that disagreed with him. Unfortunately he was in a position to bring such threats to fruition.

This man had what was called scripture police walking the streets in his day. Remember the modesty police of the taliban. Same principal, same actions..

Now perhaps we can talk scripture without bringing forth the words of some long dead hero to worship.

 

How much better place this world would be, if men learned to take their own advice.

 

That is precisely right. All the more reason to take the Bible at its word instead of taking a crow-bar to the Bible in order to pry open every possible grammatical crack in order to squeeze in what our emotions would rather have it say.

Absolutely. And since we are no better than these scholars, and we must also put on our pants one at a time, let's also leave behind our illusion that God is obliged to live up to our personal criteria for being "good" or "loving" or "fair" or "just."

 

For all your claiming to know what you are talking about, you again demonstrate that you don't by misrepresenting what total depravity is. Total depravity does not teach that man is as bad as he could be nor does it teach that all men are equally bad. It teaches that every area of man's being has been affected by sin. When will you start listening to those who know what they are talking about? It will greatly help your understanding, even if you don't agree and will further the dialogue.

 

Larry,

It would be easier to understand if I got the same response from different Calvinists, all of whom say they know what they are talking about.

But I don't.

So I ask questions and then get slammed for it.

oh well...

 

Helen,

With all due respect (and I do like you ... I really do), the doctrine of total depravity as I have stated it above is the standard Calvinist response. The only thing I have ever heard different is what non-calvinists say to discredit it, things such as you have said. I don't mean to jump on you too harshly and I apologize if it came across that way. I hear all the time that people know what they are talking about because they have studied and read and then they say something totally off base.

I agree with you that Spurgeon, you, I, and others are not as bad as some are and are not as bad as we coul be. I disagree that that has anything to do with the doctrine of total depravity. That is simply not the issue. My desire is that we all use roughly the same ideas to communicate about those ideas.

What calvinist source has ever defined total depravity as you have? From what Calvinist did you get that information?

 

Thank you, God, for giving me spiritual heroes in the modern day and the not far distant past to imitate and to guide me in understanding Your truth.

In Jesus's name, Amen.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

It is great to agree, even as we disagree. I personally have no illusion that God has to live up to my concept of good. Yet I feel without a doubt that God does live up to his concept of good. And that i am to look to him to determin what is good and what is not... I am not aware of any personal exemption that God has that allows him to do evil and call it good. He does not do evil, and he does not use evil and call it good.

I do not believe that God has one concept of good that applys to him, and another concept of good that applys to man. With God, i believe the concept to be either black or white, good or evil. It is his standard of goodness that he has called all men to.

There is not a concept of good as pertains to man and another concept of good that applys to God. What is good in heaven, is good on earth, and what is good on earth is good in heaven. The God of heaven is also the God of earth.

God is not obliged to live up to our standards, yet we are obliged to live up to his. We are to be immitators of Christ to the best of our ability. Save the person of God, there is nothing about God that we should not strive to be.

The life of Christ is our example, our living example. How many did Christ express a corporate lack of love for as demonstrated by the concept of predestination. He expressed indivigual indignation from time to time, but a corporate lack of love.. Never. Did he hate the Pharisees, why don't we ask Nicodemus and Paul....

Yet, predestination has God hating a major portion of those that he created while loving only the few.... Should we mimick Christ in actions such as these?? I think not...

 

Pastor Larry,
If I am recalling right (and I don't even know if the posts are still remaining), on this BaptistBoard, pinoybaptist defined it as something like every man doing every kind of evil. I strongly objected and he declared I might not even be Christian. As I recall, that was approximately how the exchange went. So I shut up.

However on other boards I have also been informed the same. All I am saying is that I have never gotten a consistent answer. If yours is the correct one, that makes a lot more sense to me. Thank you.

 

No it doesn't. It has Him executing His just wrath upon a great number of sinners while mercifully saving some.

There is, however, a real sense in which God loves all, even those who are His enemies.

But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you; in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

He loves all (even those He condemns to Hell) as exhibited by his provision of good earthly provisions for all.

 

Maybe our Anti-Calvinist friends are not familiar with the doctrine of common grace?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 31, 2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

There is no man who is good. There is no man able to imitate Christ apart from possessing within the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Without being drawn, even Paul and Nicodemus failed to live up to these standards.

What did Paul say? I count all things as loss. What things, all the righteousness he had worked according to the law, striving within himself to do that which he could not, and ultimately finding himself in the shape warned against by Gamalia. Struggling against God. When the will of man is what determines the choice for God or Christ, or to be a Christian, then this will continues to strive against God, attempting to bring forth of its own depraved self works that are contemptible in the sight of God, because they are not within His Will.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Yes.

 

Amen.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 31, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

I would surmise that God chose all people. Whether all people return the favor is up for debate.

 

Then, in your scenario, God chose no one. To choose all is to not make a choice. God is not at the mercy of man to be chosen or not. It is man who is at the mercy of God to be chosen or not.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Thank you, God, for being my spiritual hero; in this modern day, and in the not far distant past: To imitate and to guide me in understanding Your truth.

Christ, you are my hero..... My Lord, and my savior. Lord, you are everything to me....
Amen..

 

Maybe our Anti-Calvinist friends are not familiar with the doctrine of common grace?

Ken
A Spurgeonite </font>[/QUOTE]When did you make it up...