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Featured SIN TO DEATH

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, May 22, 2024.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Sin To Death

    “These things I have written to you who believe in the Name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him. If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death” (1 John 5:13-17)

    Firstly, it is very clear from this passage, that these words are addressed directly to born-again believers, and not to the whole world. We read, “you who believe in the Name of the Son of God”, and, “you have eternal life”, and, “if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us”, and, “brother”. All of this can only be used for a truly saved person.

    Secondly, it is also clear, that a saved person (brother/sister), can commit “a sin leading to death”. The context is “eternal life”, which makes this “death”, spiritual, and not physical.

    Thirdly, this “spiritual death” that a born-again Christian commits, is so grave, that John says that there is no point in seeking the Lord’s forgiveness, as it is not possible.

    Fourthly, John does not give any further details on what this “sin to [eternal] death” is.

    Fifthly, we must look elsewhere in the Bible to understand what John means. On passage that will shed some light on what John is saying, is Hebrews chapter 10, verses 18-31:

    “Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that He has inaugurated for us, through the curtain (that is, His flesh); and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works, not staying away from our meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near. For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. If anyone disregards Moses' law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God

    The language here is very clear, that none of it refers to an unsaved person, or, a casual or professing “believer”; but, rather to a person who has been truly converted, and “sanctified” by God the Holy Spirit. Some of these, as is also clear, can indeed fall into a state of spiritual rebellion, and thereby insult the Holy Spirit, Who gave them the new Birth.

    Another passage, is also from Hebrews chapter 3, where we read:

    Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away (Greek, aphístēmi, to revolt, depart from, withdraw) from the Living God: but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called Today; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: while it is said, Today if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into His rest, but to them that were disobedient? And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief” (verses 12-19)

    Again, the language used here can only be for a truly saved person. It is clear that a truly saved person can so “back-slide” from the Lord, that they have an “evil heart of unbelief”, that results in them “falling away from the Living God”. They are clearly deceived by their sinfulness, which causes their saved hearts to become hardened towards the Lord, and the prompting of the Holy Spirit. These are warned that they are disobedient to the Lord, and that the result of this disobedience, is that they will “not enter into His rest”, which is here eternal life. Their sinfulness is so serious, that their once “belief” turns into “unbelief”. They are encouraged to “hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end”, which says that there is a real danger that this can be lost.

    Jesus Himself warned of this in Matthew chapter 24:

    “Then they will hand you over for persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. Then many will take offense, betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved” (verses 9-13)

    Similarly, in Revelation 3:5, Jesus also warns:

    He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels”

    Taking these words with what Jesus says in Matthew, asks the question, what of those who do not overcome?

    These, and other passages are clear warnings, that a truly born-again person can indeed be lost, and end up in eternal punishment. Those who will argue against this because of their “theology”, must take these serious warnings as nothing more that empty words!
     
  2. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Context is everything!

    Galatians 2: 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Peter, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    So what is your point in regards to the OP?
     
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  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    #4 kyredneck, May 22, 2024
    Last edited: May 22, 2024
  5. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    The passages you use to establish your thesis were not written to or about the Body of Christ but to Jewish (and proselyte) believers of the previous dispensation. If Israel had never been cut off and God had not turned instead to the Gentiles through the Apostle Paul then your argument would be iron clad, totally definitive and irrefutable.

    The problem, however, is that Israel was cut off and God did turn to the Gentiles and, as a result, we must rightly divide the word of truth so as not to mix teachings meant for believers under the previous dispensation with those meant for us under the current dispensation. The former being ministered to by the Peter, James, John, et al. and the later by the Apostle Paul, as the verse I quoted states so very clearly.

    One could very definitely lose their salvation under the previous dispensation because it was a covenant of law, but now Christ is the end of the law for salvation sake and so we cannot lose our salvation. The difference is quite stark and the boundary between the two positions is the Apostle Paul. Those who teach that you can lose your salvation will quote from any and every book of the bible except those written by Paul and those who teach that you cannot lose your salvation will quote from Paul almost entirely.

    There have been dozens of books written on this topic and they all go basically along the lines. They spend most of their pages focusing primarily on their proof texts and then they'll spend some time dealing with texts that seem to teach the opposing view by explaining how they don't actually mean what they seem to mean. Those passages that are the proof texts for one side are the problem texts for the other side.

    If you rightly divide, however, you end up with no problem texts at all! Notice that I am not saying that the passages you cite do not teach what you are suggesting that they teach. They do teach it! Those passages mean just exactly what it seems like they mean by merely reading them. I feel no need to twist them around, to reinterpret them, to get out my Strong's concordance and explain how a particular word means something that sheds new light on the passage or any other such thing. The passages mean what they say. More than that, I'd expect them to say it! The fact that Peter, James, John, Jesus, Moses, et al. taught that one can lose their salvation is precisely what I'd expect for them to teach and if they didn't teach it, it would be indicative of a very major problem with my understanding of the bible.

    What's more is that the question of whether one can lose their salvation is only one of several doctrinal debates within Christian circles that fall along these same lines. Is water baptism required for salvation (perhaps the single most divisive issue in Christian history), will the rapture occur and if so when, do physical miracles happen today, should Christians speak in tongues, should Christians keep the law, are good works required for salvation, etc, etc. Some of these are more starkly delineated along these lines than others, but basically, you can pick any one of those debates and look at how one side argues their position vs. the other and what you'll see is that one side's proof texts will be from Paul and the other side's proof texts will be from the rest of the bible. It's really amazing! Once you've noticed it, it just seems to pop up everywhere!

    Indeed, the difference is so stark that there are whole sects of the Christian church, the Messianic Jews in particular, that just flat out ignore Paul's epistles altogether and there is a danger of the opposite happening where grace gospel believers don't ever bother cracking open their bibles to anything other than Paul's epistles. Both are a mistake. All scripture is profitable, even needed, but it must be read and studied in it's intended context and we, during this dispensation of grace, must read the books of the bible written by Peter, James, John, etc as though we are reading someone else's mail or the result will be confusion, to say the least. Basically, they should be read with the same mindset with which one reads the book of Deuteronomy or Isaiah or Micah. They are scripture but they do not apply directly to us because we are not members of the House of Israel and so are not under their "house rules" (oikonomia - Strong's G3622 - "house rules" or "economy" or "dispensation").

    Colossians 3:3
    For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

    2 Timothy 2:13
    If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    1 John, Hebrews, Matthew and Revelation, which I quote, are ALL written to born-again believers!

    Read the CONTEXT
     
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  7. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    I do not deny that it is written to believers.

    Did you even bother to read my post at all?

    Where in it did I ever suggest that anything written by these biblical authors was written to unbelievers? I didn't! What are you even talking about?
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any point of what you say in #5, as it does not in any way show that the OP is not right according to the Bible!
     
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  9. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Read it again, if you read it in the first place.
     
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  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    If I'm reading your post correctly, I see that what you are proposing in your understanding of the passage is what Wesley taught ( and many still teach to this day )...loss of salvation.
    This is not what God tells His people, because the Lord Jesus will not lose any of those that were given to Him by the Father;

    Not one:

    "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
    ( John 6:37-40 )

    " Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
    But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
    My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
    I and [my] Father are one.
    ( John 10:25-30 ).


    God says no one is more powerful than He is, and not one of His elect will be taken from Him.
    Perhaps of you read it again with this in mind, the understanding of it will become clearer.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    You have not dealt with the Bible passages that I have quoted in the OP

    Can you give your interpretation to the passages
     
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Or….. John is saying if someone sins and it leads to death (physical) there is no need to offer prayers for someone that has died (physically)

    That seems supported by the context, not “oh no!! Someone sinned “such n such” therefore they are spiritually dead so no need to pray for them”

    peace to you
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I consider it to be a sin that carries with it the penalty of capital punishment. Certainly not the loss of eternal salvation.
     
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  14. MMDAN

    MMDAN New Member

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    Certain people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context - 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
     
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  15. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I did.
    I shouldn't have to give my "interpretation" of it, SBG.
    The words themselves should be enough for any Christian to see, "hear" and understand ( 1 John 2:27 ).

    But, for the sake of those reading this and to clarify your question with an answer...
    What is it about what I referenced, that you may not understand?
    Is it not evident by what is stated...that Christ will lose none of those who have been given to Him by His Father in Heaven, and that there is no one who has the power to take any of His elect out of His hand...including themselves? Because no man is more powerful than God?

    That, my friend, was enough for me to see many years ago now; and it put this question to rest long ago.

    If someone who is saved could commit "spiritual suicide" through an act or set of acts against God, then that means that the Lord Jesus lied when He told us what He did through that very same apostle John. But since God is not a liar, then that means that the death being described in 1 John 5:16-17 is physical, not spiritual, right?

    Those who are saved have been made spiritually alive ( born again ) in Christ, sealed with the Spirit of their adoption at the time of their hearing His word and believing on Him ( Ephesians 1 ).
    Sealed, unto the day of their redemption ( Ephesians 4:30 )....and they can never go back ( neither would they desire to ):

    " Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 ).

    They are kept by the power of God, not their own power:

    " Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
     
    #15 Dave G, May 22, 2024
    Last edited: May 22, 2024
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    then prove that what I have said in the OP is wrong! Simply making a one line remark and reposting the passage, says NOTHING!
     
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  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The CONTEXT in 1 John 5, has the words ETERNAL LIFE (verse 13), which is NOT "physical" but SPIRITUAL!

    AGAIN, you have not dealt with the other NT passages in the OP?
     
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  18. MMDAN

    MMDAN New Member

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    1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

    All sin that is not covered by the blood of Jesus Christ would lead to spiritual death so verses 17 and 18 refute your argument.
     
  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No, they cannot.
    God has answered that already through His apostle John, but it seems that you've completely missed the significance of what I've stated.
    I showed you where the Lord puts to rest the idea that one of His saved can lose their salvation and their gift of eternal life.

    That same eternal life, which is to know God ( John 17:3 ), has benefits...
    One of those is that we participate in the first resurrection unto life ( Revelation 20:1-6 )...spiritual life comes first when a person is born of God, then the latter at the day of Christ's coming.

    God's people can not lose their gifts ( Romans 11:29 )....they were never theirs to earn, and they were never theirs to lose.

    I wish you well, and may He reveal Himself to you as He has me.
     
  20. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    You didn't say this to me but it's appropriate that I respond to it because if no one else on this thread has done so, I most certainly have addressed the passages that you quoted in the OP.

    Your only response so far is to pretend like you don't see my point. I invite you to read my post again or else stop complaining about people not addressing your argument.
     
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