Since I'm sure some are wondering about me...

LW- I very highly respect your search for the Truth and what type of church to attend.
Went through the same thing myself. I pray the Lord will lead you to where He needs you to work for Him.

(btw- you can read a little bit about my search here: www.geocities.com/flyfree432/bio.html )

Brother Adam

 

Brother Adam, to be such a young fellow you are very mature in the Word

God bless
Susan

 

Don't let the picture fool you It's two years old now. It was taken when i was 18, and I just turned 20.

Yes, I did apply for Moody, they are blessed enough to offer all of their students a free education, but getting in is very hard. I didn't make it. I'm looking at going to a non-demon. school this winter.

btw- I'll get you a new truck as soon as I get a vechicle- I don't even own one

susanpet- I hope even though I'm a little older than I look you still think I'm mature in the Word. Let the glory be to God.

Brother Adam

 

Originally posted by Lone Wolf:
I'm a recovering Pharisee.

Good for you!

I cannot be pinned into one certain Denominational Label. Many have tried, all have failed.

I hate labels. I hope I won't label you...

Welcome to these boards. I hope they are a source of encouragement to you!

love
AITB

 

If you choose room and board all said and done your education is about 9,000 a year (w/o considering scholarships or grants). And frankly, that's not bad for a world class bible education.

Brother Adam

 

Here's a challenge for you.

As you try to find Truth, put down your prejudices and all the lies and garbage you have been taught about the Catholic Faith and find some good books and tapes on various subjects and try approaching the Faith with a "what if.....could it really be?" attitude, instead of the poisonous feelings I see in your Catholic? Protestant? thread you started.

If you are going to find truth, you are going to have to open your heart and really be objective with ALL Christian theologies, and that includes the apostolic Faith found in Holy Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

Brother Ed

 

Lone Wolf --

Hey man. You had a thread started in which you asked for clarification on Catholic doctrines and it just plain ole disappeared. I even gave ya an answer on Purgatory to start with.

Well, here it is again, just for grins.

Thank you for asking me. I appreciate so much the opportunity to discuss issues of the Faith rather than to field perjoratives and ad hominums.

Please be patient with me. I have a rather sick wife and a job and lately I have not been around the board a whole lot.

Let me take these things one at a time.

Purgatory.

Well, first of all, I am an Eastern Orthodox Catholic, so we do not exactly have a concept of Purgatory as the Western Latins do, however, the idea is pretty much the same, so I will attempt to explain how I came to understand this.

First of all, Purgatory is not a "second chance" for those who are God haters and wicked. It has been described as that, but it is not.

The Scriptures I would use would have to do with 1 Corinthians 3 where it describes the Judgement of the BELIEVER. Please keep that in mind. This is judgement of those who have been found faithful as children of God. Again, it is not a "second chance" for those who have spent their whole life hating God, His Bible, His Church, and His Christ.

Now, here is where the rub comes in. IF....the doctrine first taught by Luther is true, that of forensic justification, or as some state it, "imputed righteousness" is indeed true, then Purgatory is indeed a foolish and unwarranted doctrine. As you know, imputed righteousness comes from the idea that once we make a "profession of faith" we are cloaked in the righteousness of Christ so that His righteousness is "imputed to us" (counted as ours). The favorite verses for this concept come from the 4th chapter of Romans where St. Paul talks about God imputing to Abraham righteousness because God saw Abraham's faith and "counted" it as righteousness.

There's only one little problem with this... the wording in Greek will not stand that construct. That is why the Early Fathers of the Church, who spoke Greek quite fluently, did not "discover" such a doctrine in Scripture as did Luther. It simply is not there.

The word use for "counted" or "imputed" is LOGIZOMAI. Logizomai is an accounting term, according to Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the NT, which is a PROTESTANT BIBLE DICTIONARY. It means that God, like a banker, counts what is right there in front of Him, not some imaginary money that doesn't exist. Abraham was righteous because he did a righteous thing -- He believed and had faith in God. Scripture says that faith is righteousness.

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Another way of saying this would be....Abraham believed God and God saw this righteous act and counted Abraham as being righteous, for he truly was. God counted what was there.

Imputed righteousness would say that the righteousness of Christ was imputed to Abraham, but there is another problem with this....Christ had not come yet. How could Christ's righteousness be imputed to Abraham when Christ had not been on earth yet and had not established His righteousness?

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The righteousness of faith. See? Faith is a righteous act. When we do that which is righteous, we are righteous. Luther did not believe that. He believed that human beings are all DUNG. Read his stuff some time. Very low opinion of mankind.

Therefore, if God deals with us according to our true state before Him, then we tend to fluctuate in our state of righteousness. Now without getting into a baptismal debate, please just accept this as the explanation (baptism has been absolutely BEAT TO DEATH HERE with no resolution in sight).

A new believe (an adult for arguement's sake) the moment he is baptized, is clean through and through. He is innocent like Adam was upon creation. Then he goes out to live his life. He does some things which show and live out faith in God...he maybe witnesses to another about his conversion. He tithes, trusting God with his finances. He shuns opportunities of sin. And as he does each act of righteousness, he grows in righteousness. We are in the process of becoming like Christ, and it is a lifetime of growth.

But along the way, he finds temptation to great as a baby and falls into sin. Now he is not fully righteous. He is, in fact, dirty with sin, and needs a bath. He needs the cleansing spoken of in 1 John 2:9. So he goes to confession, makes a good confession, and receives the Eucharist, thus cleansing himself and in the process of showing faith in Christ's Sacraments, once again grows in righteousness.

God sees us as we are. This is why Catholics and Orthodox consider it important to recieve the Eucharist on their deathbeds. It is that final cleansing we need to appear before the all seeing eyes of Christ with our souls cleansed in the manner which God prescribed.

But suppose there are some minor sins --- you know -- a little lie or two, some anger with people, an act of lacking faith, like withholding my tithe to pay a bill. These stain my soul as I appear before God.

Now go to Romans 2: 5- 10 and see the Final Judgement. It is a judgement which is of our works. There will be those whose lives were filled with good works, who prove that they have been indeed the children of the Father and faithful to the covenant they made with Him through Christ. But they are still dirty. They need a bath. Purgatory is that final bath.

Scott Hahn has an interesting way of describing it. Remember that Scripture describes our God as a holy fire. Hahn says that he believes that Purgatory is not a place, but it is being drawn into God's love as His children, and as we are, the fire of His love burns out the dross of our sins and leaves us clean. I must say I rather like that description. It also raises another interesting question: could hell be the never ending fire of God's love which the wicked cannot tolerate because it is so alien to what they are intrinsically? God draws all to Him in love. The pure find home, the stained are cleansed, but those who have hated God all their lives find nothing but never ending torment.

So....if imputed righteousness is true, then indeed we do not need final cleansing. But judging from the definitions I have read of logizomai....I would say that God deals with us as a banker does money. He counts what is there. And when what is there is dirty, He cleans it in love.

And this is why, by the way, we have concepts such as "mortal" and "venial" sin. Mortal sin is sin so bad (I was told there are three...murder, adultery, and apostasy) that is kills the grace in the soul, removes us from being righteous AT ALL, and if unconfessed, sends us to hell. Venial sin are those little "dirties" which also need confession (which, by the way, you CAN do without a priest, between you and God) and if left confessed, make you a dirty little child of God in need of a bath.

Hope that helps. No doubt there will be a raft of voices disputing this, but that is how I reconciled it.

And that was that. If you want, we can use this thread to pursue the other issues you wish to ask about.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Hi LW. If you have serious questions about Catholocism, might I refer you to Brother Adam?
Seriously though, what is it about IFB's that you doctrinally that you found you disagree with?
Gina

 

Oh yeah, that well-known sin of reading an NIV.

 

LW, I do understand what you're saying. However, do keep in mind that the Baptist denominations are many and that they vary from what you've experienced to embracing homosexuality. There IS a middle ground, and if you do agree with the doctrine I'd encourage you to search high and low to find it, despite your dislike of the label.
If you will be searching other denoms, that's great that you're learning and taking the time to investigate, but do be extra cautious, and remember to hold all of their beliefs up to the word of God and see how they line up. It can be sooo tempting to go on good feelings and believing what sounds good when you're looking.
Not trying to preach at you, I know you're dedicated to Christ and anxious to serve him in the right way, I just know how sticky it can be when you're trying to find exactly where you fit in. (in a way that'll be a lifetime task anyhow)
Gina

 

Gina, it sounds as though LW would have to be just as careful if he were investigating Baptist churches, as other denominations or non-denominational ones, since their doctrine varies so widely according to you...

Don't you think?

I'd say that it would be foolish not to check the doctrinal statement of any church you're interested in, Baptist or not.

But in the end, I think the people matter to me a lot too. I don't think I'd be happy at a place with a given doctrine statement, if I didn't think the people there understood the love of Christ.

 

How far would you go? Would you go to a church with quite liberal Christianity? Would you go to a Unitarian Universalist church? Have you ever been to any of these?

I will understand if you consider these too personal to answer.

 

AITB, I advise to be careful when looking for any place to worship, of course, it's a big decision. However, going outside of what standardly goes with what you believe calls for even more.
Gina