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Sinless Perfection

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Nov 21, 2004.

  1. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Yes, I know and have experienced His salvation as did the Apostle Paul

    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    HankD
    </font>[/QUOTE]The experience described in Rom. 7:14-25 is that of the idealized unregenerate (unsaved) Jew striving in his own strength to keep the Law but finding that he is unable to do so. There is absolutely NOTHING even remotely Christian about this experience. If your experience is like that described in Rom 7:14-25, then something is RADICALLY wrong!

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  2. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    I call it unscriptural because it is the very antitheses of the Biblical message. The message of the Bible is salvation from sin upon conversion, not imprisonment to sin upon conversion!

    John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
    32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

    1Cor: 13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

    Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

    1 John 3:1. See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
    2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
    3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
    4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
    5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
    6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
    7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
    8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
    9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

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  3. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    We find the answer to this question in Rom. 8:18-23,

    18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
    19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
    20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
    21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
    22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    23. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

    The soul and the spirit become new upon salvation to the extent that we choose to yield to the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. The physical body (Greek = soma) shall be changed at the blowing of the last (seventh) trumpet.

    1 Cor. 15:50. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    51. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
    52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
    53. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
    55. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
    56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
    57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

    1 Thes. 4:13. But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
    14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
    15. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
    16. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
    18. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    (All scriptures NASB, 1995)

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  4. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    The difference between King David and Christians today is that we have both the New Testament and the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit and King David did not.

    If you have sin in your life, and have confessed and agree with God that is wrong, why are you hanging onto that sin???

    And why would any Christian chose to pursue their own will rather than the will of God??? Sin comes with a price tag, and sin is NEVER worth the price.

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  5. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    You are right that I do not know for certain the imaginations of other people, but rather than judge them, I take them at their word.

    I assume that you are writing here regarding the two verses from the Epistle of James that you quoted on the previous page:

    James 4:11. Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.
    12. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

    Telling the truth with NO malicious intent is a virtue, not a sin! And the last time that I was in a courtroom, I noticed that there was a BIG difference between the judge and the witness to the crime. Am I to suppose that you believe that it was the intent of the Holy Spirit writing by the hand of James to say that honestly testifying against a wrongdoer is a sin???

    I know that.

    It is not the will of God for me to do so.

    (All scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

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  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I strongly disagree since Paul uses the present tense and the phrase "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man".

    An impossibility for an unregenerate no matter how idealized he may be seeing he is but flesh.

    So say you.

    RE:James 4:11-12
    11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.
    12. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
    It is a sin if it violates the Scripture. The best you can do is to suspect that the motives of the heart are evil. You "testified" that certain folks are trying to "justify" their sin. You cannot know that.
    The BB is not a courtroom.
    If you consider it such that is your problem in that you have concocted it as such to perhaps justify (as I suspect) your own wrong-doing in judging others.
    I believe He expects you and I to obey it brother. Stop judging people, God will take care of sorting out the wheat from the tares. You may cause your carnal brother to stumble by a poor judgment.

    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    HankD
     
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Then Paul is violating scripture when he says "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." —I Tim. 1:15.

    If Paul said he was the chief of sinners, then how can we lay claim to anything different?
     
  8. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    The uses of the present indicative tense does not change the fact that the experience described in Rom. 7:14-25 is that of the idealized unregenerate (unsaved) Jew striving in his own strength to keep the Law but finding that he is unable to do so.

    NO WHERE in the Scriptures do we find that ANY Christian is to strive to keep the Law, for we are NOT under the Law, but under grace. And a Christian would be the fool of fools to attempt to measure up to the righteous demands of the Law in his own strength. Therefore the “I” in Romans 7:14-25 can not possibly be the Apostle Paul.

    Anyone who believes that it is impossible for an unregenerate man to delight in the Law of God is simply ignorant of classical literature.

    Sed trahit invitam nova vis; aliudque cupido,
    Mens aliud suadet. Video meliora, proboque;
    Deteriora sequor.


    My reason this, my passion that persuades;
    I see the right, and I approve it too;
    Condemn the wrong, and yet the wrong pursue.
    Ovid, Met. lib. vii. ver. 19.

    Indignum facinus! nunc ego et
    Illam scelestam esse, et me miserum sentio:
    Et taedet: et amore ardeo: et prudens, sciens,
    Vivus, vidensque pereo: nec quid agam scio.


    An unworthy act! Now I perceive that she is wicked, and I am wretched. I burn with love, and am vexed at it. Although prudent, and intelligent, and active, and seeing, I perish; neither do I know what to do.
    Terent. Eun. ver. 70.

    Sed quia mente minus validus, quam corpore toto,
    Quae nocuere, sequar; fugiam, quae profore credam.
    Hor. Ep. lib. i. E. 8, ver. 7.


    More in my mind than body lie my pains:
    Whate’er may hurt me, I with joy pursue;
    Whate’er may do me good, with horror view.
    Francis.

    For, truly, he who sins does not will sin, but wishes to walk uprightly: yet it is manifest that what he wills he doth not; and what he wills not he doth.
    Arrian. Epist. ii. 26.

    - But I am overcome by sin,
    And I well understand the evil which I presume to commit.
    Passion, however, is more powerful than my reason;
    Which is the cause of the greatest evils to mortal men.
    Eurip. Med. v. 1077.


    “Certainly I must have two souls . . . . for plainly it is not one and the same which is both evil and good, nor which loves honourable and base conduct, and at the same time wishes to do a thing and not to do it. Plainly then there are two souls; and when the good one prevails, then it does good; and when the evil one predominates, then it does evil.”
    Xenophon. Cyrop. VI. 1

    “I know, indeed, that such things as I am about to do, are evil; but my mind is better than my inclinations.”
    Euripides. Medea, 1077

    “I have forgotten none of the things respecting which you have admonished me; but although I have a desire to do them, nature forces me another way.”
    Euripides quoted by Clemens Alex. Strom. II. 15

    Notice, however, that none of these authors mentions the “Law of God” because they were not Jewish. Only a Jew could delight in the Law of God. And did Paul delight in the Law of God after he was saved? Of course not! Paul’s attitude toward the Law after he got saved was very different from the attitude of the idealized unregenerate Jew, for he wrote:

    1 Cor. 15:56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
    57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


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  9. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Then Paul is violating scripture when he says "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." —I Tim. 1:15.

    If Paul said he was the chief of sinners, then how can we lay claim to anything different?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Most clearly we differ regarding the very fundamentals of faith and conscience. I have personally studied the writing of hundreds of scholars of Pauline theology representing almost every imaginable school of Christian thought, and never before have I encountered an interpretation that is so far at variance from the word of God.

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  10. JBE

    JBE New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Quote by CBTS
    --------------------------------------------------
    The difference between King David and Christians today is that we have both the New Testament and the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit and King David did not.
    --------------------------------------------------

    So David went on and became great, and the LORD God of hosts was with him. 2 Samuel 5:10

    I do belive he had the Holy spirit with him, for the Holy spirit is none other than God himself.
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    So, when one does not agree with the plain and simple Scripture using the personal pronoun "I" then one simply negates Paul's testimony by calling his use of the personal pronoun "I" an "idealized unregenerate Jew"?

    If we cannot believe the Apostle Paul's "I" of 7:14-25 then what can we believe out of the Scripture?

    I not only strongly disagree with you CBTS but vehemently disagree with this analysis of Romans 7:14-25.

    You have quoted no Scripture to support your argument here but the words and traditions of men.
    Then you follow that with "Notice, however, that none of these authors mentions the 'Law of God'".

    If that is the case then you have no reason to quote them since they don't support the argument you started out to prove.

    First you said that those who don't believe the unregenerate man can delight in the Law of God are ignorant of certain classical literature which presumably supports the alleged fact that the unregenerate can indeed delight in the Law of God and offer said literature as proof, then immediately deny that is proof after all.

    Then you say:
    He also had the following attitudes:

    Romans 7:4 For we know that the law is spiritual...

    Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

    1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good...

    I believe we have come to an insurmountable impasse CBTS.

    HankD
     
  12. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    There is absolutely nothing in the description of the man in Rom. 7:14-25 that is even remotely Christian. And lest anyone misunderstand him, right at the outset in verse 14 Paul explicitly tells us that the man whom is he is describing is a man who is in the state of having been sold (Greek present passive participle in the nominative case) unto sin, making it absolutely impossible for any one to misunderstand him. And there is no evidence that anyone hearing this letter read in the Church of Rome misunderstood Paul and thought that he was speaking of himself. Neither is there any evidence that anyone hearing this letter read in any other Greek speaking church misunderstood Paul. Indeed, we know from history that the Greek Church fathers did understand Paul, but a few of the later Latin fathers did not. But when these Latin fathers taught that Paul was speaking of himself as a Christian in Rom. 7:14-25, their students realized that such an interpretation was absolutely ridiculous and they rejected it.

    So, since the man that Paul describes in Rom. 7:14-25 is not a Christian, and since using the first person singular present indicative was a common literary device in Paul’s time (as it still is today among English speaking writers), there can be no reasonable doubt that we find the use of such a literary device here in the Epistle to the Romans in chapter seven where earlier in the chapter Paul has used some rather complicated literary devices that have stumped many casual readers (and even some not so casual readers).

    1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
    2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
    3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

    And immediately, without warning, Paul reverts back to the straight-forward approach in verses 4-6,

    4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
    5. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
    6. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

    But notice that in verse 4 Paul twice uses the second person plural and then shifts to the first person plural to bring his readers into the picture that he is drawing and he thus keeps them there through verse 6.

    In verse 7,

    7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

    He begins with the first person plural future indicative (“we”) but radically jumps to the first person singular active aorist (“I”). And who is the “I” in Rom. 7:7? From the literary perspective of Greek readers, the “I” here is obviously rhetorical, but from the perspective of Latin and English writers it is apparently less obvious. From the historical perspective, however, it was probably not obvious to his first century Greek readers, but from the perspective of his 21st century English readers who have studied the life of Paul, there can be no doubt whatsoever that this is a rhetorical “I” because the experience described here and on through verse 13 is expressly in contradiction to Paul’s testimony in other places in the Scriptures.

    8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
    9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
    10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
    11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
    12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
    13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

    For thirteen verses Paul has been addressing the Jewish members of the congregation in Rome, and he can feel the tension that his words are creating in their hearts and minds (in verse 10, for example, he had written, “and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;”) and already, in verse 12, Paul has written that “the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good,” but the air is till full of tension because one thing that one does not do is tell a Jew that the consequence of the Law is sin!. Therefore I Paul writes,

    14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

    Paul is writing here, in effect, “The problem is not with the Law, for it is spiritual; the problem is with me, for I am carnal, sold into bondage to sin.” And so Paul writes right up through verse 25, ‘it is not the Law’s fault that the Jew sins, the Jew sins because he is of flesh, sold into bondage to sin by Adam when he ate the forbidden fruit.’ Therefore, the Jew, just like the Gentiles (who all Jews know are sinners) is in need of a savior, and that Savior is “Jesus Christ our Lord!”

    And after seven chapters of testifying to both the Jews and the Gentiles that they are in need of the savior, Jesus Christ our Lord, and after explaining in chapter 6 that being under grace through Christ and not being under the Law does not free the believer to sin, but rather frees the believer from sin, Paul begins chapter 8:

    1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
    2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
    3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
    4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    The contrast between the Jew in Rom. 7:14-25 and the Christian in Rom. 8:1-4 is a greater contrast than night and day. It is bad enough that Satan has robbed some Christians of an understanding of chapter 7, but he has also robbed these same Christians of an understanding of chapter 8, for the key to understanding chapter 8 is to clearly understand the seven chapters preceding it.

    My years of teaching the Epistle to the Romans in the classroom has made me keenly aware that most Christians approach this epistle with a mind full of preconceived ideas that are very much contradictory to the Epistle, and that not very many students are willing to lay aside those preconceived ideas. But it is my responsibility as a teacher of the Bible to teach it, and it is the responsibility of God to do the rest.

    We must not only believe the "I" of 7:14-25, we must understand the writer and what He has written.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    I quoted several non-Christian writers that expressed the same conflict of human natures as we find in Rom. 7:14-25. I quoted them to show that the conflict in human natures in Rom. 7:14-25 is a non-Christian experience.


    Yes, I did, because it is important to note that the only difference between the experience of these heathen writers and the experience of the "idealized unregenerate Jew" is that the Jew delights in the Law of God.” Heathen do NOT delight in the Law of God, and Christians do NOT delight in the Law of God (they delight in the grace of God . . . which is totally absent in Rom. 7:14-25), ONLY an "idealized unregenerate Jew" could be said to delight in the Law of God. Therefore, since the experience described in Rom. 7:14-25 is identical to that of the heathen whom I have quoted, that is, with the one exception that I have named, the experience described in Rom. 7:14-25 is that of an Unbeliever who delights in the Law of God, that is, an "idealized unregenerate Jew." Therefore, the experience described in Rom. 7:14-25 can ONLY be that of an "idealized unregenerate Jew." ALL other possibilities have been eliminated!

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  14. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

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    Craigbythesea ,
    You certainly are adept at twisting scripture to make it appear that you live a sinless life. You are lying to others and especially yourself. You don't understand the significance of the resurrection or the cursed state of man. You don't understand that our righteousness is imputed until the resurrection. The reason we need Christ as our mediator is because the Father cannot tolerate sin. He must see us through the veil of Christ's shed blood.

    I can quote scripture to back this up. I will prepare a short study on the subject if you want.

    Just get honest with yourself. You will sin each and every day until you die!!
     
  15. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Perhaps you should have studied Paul directly instead of the writings of those who have a theological opinion of Paul. :(

    I don't have a problem with your view. But, my specific point here is completely scriptural. You, however, are saying that only your view is acceptible, to the exclusion of others, regardless of whether scripture supports that other view or not. In other words, your refusal to accept other scripturally supportable positions is rather narrowminded.
     
  16. JBE

    JBE New Member

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    Romans 7
    15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

    19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

    21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.


    In these 3 passages paul is describing a person who desires to obey God's law and hates his sin. He sees sin in himself, but that's not all that's there, and he serves Jesus Christ with his mind [verse 25]. Paul has already established that none of those attitudes ever describe the unsaved.

    Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

    Romans 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

    Romans 3:10-20 As it is written:
    "There is none righteous, no, not one;
    There is none who understands;
    There is none who seeks after God.
    They have all turned aside;
    They have together become unprofitable;
    There is none who does good, no, not one."[2]
    "Their throat is an open tomb;
    With their tongues they have practiced deceit";[3]
    "The poison of asps is under their lips";[4]
    "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."[5]
    "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    And the way of peace they have not known."[6]
    "There is no fear of God before their eyes."[7]


    Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Paul's present tense verbs in 7:14-25 suggest that he is describing his current life as a christian. The "I" refers to himself so in verses 14-25 he is describing all christians. If you hold up your own life beside God's perfect law you will quickly see how far short you fall.

    I heard someone say awhile ago that the cross represents my failure. I agree. That's why it's so despised by the world.
     
  17. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. (NASB, 1995)

    Good Luck! :D

    [​IMG]
     
  18. JBE

    JBE New Member

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    1 John 1:8

    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [​IMG]


    Quote by CBTS
    -------------------------------------------------
    Good Luck!
    -------------------------------------------------

    Thank you - This speaks volumes
     
  19. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    When people deliberately quote John 1:8 out of context to teach that it is normal for a Christian to sin, . . . . (The rules of the message board do not allow me to finish this sentence).

    For those of you that believe that honesty is a virtue, here is 1 John 1:8 in context,

    1 John 1:5. This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
    6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
    7. but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
    8. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
    (NASB, 1995)

    In the verse IMMEDIATELY preceding 1:8, John wrote that “the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” Notice that John does NOT write that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all BUT our secret, private sins! And John does NOT write that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all BUT the sins of omission. And John does NOT write that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all BUT one sin. John writes that the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin. Yes, we have ALL sinned, past tense, but the Bible says that the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin when we confess our sins and repent of our sins. No, John does not expressly mention repentance here, and of course that is because his focus is on what the blood of Jesus does for us rather than on our detailed response to it, but we know from other passages in the Bible that repentance is necessary and inseparable from true confession, although there are some people who would argue even against that teaching (the powers of darkness have no shortage of allies, even in “Christian” churches). And in verse 9, we again read that “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Notice that Christians are not JUST forgiven! Christians are forgiven and CLEANSED FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Does anyone know a three letter word :rolleyes: that is a synonym for sarcasm? [​IMG]
     
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