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Featured Sketchy Doctrine

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Van, May 20, 2013.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Brother winman, Christ being led into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil - at very least this says something about the devil.

    To show the world that he's not so smart after all and to show the children of God his hatred of God and His children.

    HankD
     
    #141 HankD, Jun 4, 2013
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, we now have 15 pages of mostly off topic twaddle, where you are feeding the the person who denies the many were made sinners. Nothing anyone can say will alter the mind of someone who rewrites scripture to fit his or her doctrine. Witness my efforts to discuss Calvinism.

    1) We know we are conceived in sin, brought forth in iniquity, Psalm 51:5. We know our iniquity causes a separation from God.

    2) We know we are by nature children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3. Thus we are conceived in a fallen, corrupted condition, otherwise we would be as Winman wrongly claims children of God from the get go.

    3) We know that we start out condemned because of unbelief, John 3:18, therefore anytime before we believed, we were condemned, i.e. at conception.

    4) We know that the many, everyone "in Adam" were made sinners, Romans 5:19, meaning the consequence of Adam's sin, separation from God and corruption of his spirit, is applied to each of us at conception, i.e. when God forms our spirit within us.

    5) We know that Christ died for all men, He laid down His life as a ransom for all, and became the propitiation for the whole world. Thus the whole world needed redemption including those who do not know their right hand from their left.

    6) And we know that only those that receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross, are saved, born spiritually anew, made perfect, holy and blameless through His death. And we receive that reconciliation when God credits our faith, as flawed as it may be, as righteousness and puts us spiritually in Christ, where we are made alive together with Christ. Thus we were dead, spiritually separated from God, before we were made alive.
     
    #142 Van, Jun 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2013
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did the Fall cause us to be conceived in a sinful condition, separated from God? My answer is yes. Had we sinned or done anything good or bad? My answer is no. Thus Adam's sin was not imputed to us. But the consequence of his sin, separation from God and corruption did result in our sinful condition at conception.

    Were our sins and our sinful condition washed away by Christ's one sacrifice on the Cross? No. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's one sacrifice on the cross have their sins washed away. God must credit our faith as righteousness, and then place us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, in order to receive the washing of regeneration.

    Leaving the ramblings of our errant brothers behind, note that the application of the propitiation is assumed, rather than received by God accepting our faith in Christ during our lifetime. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

    Bottom line, the nice sounding doctrine avoids the sequence given in scripture for salvation.
     
    #143 Van, Jun 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2013
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Hank, I respectfully disagree. The scriptures says Jesus was LED UP OF THE SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    It was God's idea through the Holy Spirit that Jesus would be tempted by the devil.

    As Adam failed when he was tempted by the devil, Jesus must defeat Satan by resisting temptation. And it was no easy test, after 40 days the scriptures say Jesus was "an hungred" which means he was literally starving to eat. So the temptation of Satan to turn stones to bread was a powerful enticement to Jesus's human flesh.

    If Jesus could not be affected by temptation, it would be no test at all, in fact, it would actually be misleading and dishonest, appearing as a test when it was not.

    The scriptures say Jesus was "obedient" which implies that he could also be disobedient. A programmed robot cannot be obedient. But of course Jesus was perfectly obedient to God the Father at all times. This is how he was able to redeem man.

    Jesus would not have needed to become a man if he simply defeated Satan as God. That was the whole purpose of coming and being born flesh.
     
    #144 Winman, Jun 4, 2013
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did the Fall cause us to be conceived in a sinful condition, separated from God? My answer is yes. Had we sinned or done anything good or bad? My answer is no. Thus Adam's sin was not imputed to us. But the consequence of his sin, separation from God and corruption did result in our sinful condition at conception.

    Were our sins and our sinful condition washed away by Christ's one sacrifice on the Cross? No. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's one sacrifice on the cross have their sins washed away. God must credit our faith as righteousness, and then place us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, in order to receive the washing of regeneration.

    Leaving the ramblings of our errant brothers behind, note that the application of the propitiation is assumed, rather than received by God accepting our faith in Christ during our lifetime. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

    Bottom line, the nice sounding doctrine avoids the sequence given in scripture for salvation.
     
    #145 Van, Jun 4, 2013
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, we now have 15 pages of mostly off topic twaddle, where you are feeding the the person who denies the many were made sinners. Nothing anyone can say will alter the mind of someone who rewrites scripture to fit his or her doctrine. Witness my efforts to discuss Calvinism.

    1) We know we are conceived in sin, brought forth in iniquity, Psalm 51:5. We know our iniquity causes a separation from God.

    2) We know we are by nature children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3. Thus we are conceived in a fallen, corrupted condition, otherwise we would be as Winman wrongly claims children of God from the get go.

    3) We know that we start out condemned because of unbelief, John 3:18, therefore anytime before we believed, we were condemned, i.e. at conception.

    4) We know that the many, everyone "in Adam" were made sinners, Romans 5:19, meaning the consequence of Adam's sin, separation from God and corruption of his spirit, is applied to each of us at conception, i.e. when God forms our spirit within us.

    5) We know that Christ died for all men, He laid down His life as a ransom for all, and became the propitiation for the whole world. Thus the whole world needed redemption including those who do not know their right hand from their left.

    6) And we know that only those that receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross, are saved, born spiritually anew, made perfect, holy and blameless through His death. And we receive that reconciliation when God credits our faith, as flawed as it may be, as righteousness and puts us spiritually in Christ, where we are made alive together with Christ. Thus we were dead, spiritually separated from God, before we were made alive.
     
    #146 Van, Jun 4, 2013
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I would be willing to bet folks are more convinced by my arguments than yours.
    Baloney, Psalm 51 is poetry, not doctrinal scripture to be used to formulate doctrine. This verse is not speaking of all men, but only David's mother, saying that "in sin did my mother conceive me". A third grader would understand this is speaking of David's mother, not ALL men.

    If you really knew scripture you would know nature does not necessarily mean the way we are born, it can mean learned behavior, such as in Gal 2:15.

    Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

    If "nature" means our constitution as we were born, then this verse would say that Jews do not have a sin nature. There is also scripture that says the Gentiles keep the law "by nature"

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    This verse speaks of Gentiles by nature doing the things contained in the law.

    So, you do not know the scriptures, or even the proper definition of "nature".

    Yes, SINNERS are condemned by unbelief, because we are justified or forgiven by faith. But unborn children who have committed no sin are not sinners and need no repentance. (Luke 15:7).

    Yes, it says MANY, not all, because babies and little children are not sinners until they imitate Adam and knowingly and willingly sin. I have also shown several times that your interpretation of Rom 5:18-19 leads to the inescapable conclusion of universalism, but you are not bright enough to understand that.

    The first thing you have said that is correct. And go back and read Jonah 4:11, where God told Jonah he SHOULD spare Nineveh. Why should God spare Nineveh? Because the 120,000 little children there were not sinners.

    God saves everyone who believes.

    We were dead in trespasses and sins wherein we WALKED, it does not say we were born dead in sins, in fact, Romans 9:11 proves that babies have committed no sin. Sin is not something you can inherit from your parents, sin is something you do.

    If sin could be inherited, then Jesus would have been a sinner, as scripture says he was MADE of the SEED of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

    Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    And lastly, I will talk like you;

    Folks, don't listen to Van, he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about most of the time. He is full of himself.
     
    #147 Winman, Jun 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2013
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Winman again posts twaddle, more non-germane verses simply copy and pasted, never addressing the rebuttals.

    1) Winman tells us the Psalms are unable to teach biblical truth. Jesus cited the Psalms and quoted or paraphrases the Psalms, i.e. does Psalm 22 ring a bell.

    2) By nature refers to our natural condition, not how we were shaped by nurture, how we lived. Here we get the word redefinition just like Calvinists. We are all by nature children of wrath, fallen, corrupt, and separated from God spiritually.

    3) John 3:18 does not say those who have sinned are condemned, it says we are condemned already because of unbelief. Our unbelief starts at conception. Here Winman is rewriting the verse to put in a loop hole. Note we were made sinners, and we are made at conception, and we were conceived in iniquity, a sinful state.

    4) Next we get the "many" redefined to refer to those who have volitionally sinned, rather than the "all men" who were condemned as a result of Adam's sin. Nonsense.

    5) Next we get a Whale of a story, that God spared Nineveh, because of the children who did not know their right hand from their left. Never mind all the examples where God did not spare little children in the OT. This is all Winman has, passages yanked out and tossed up hoping something will hit home. But instead we get these efforts, God had compassion of the great city which included little children and animals who had done nothing wrong. Has nothing to do that if those children did not obtain approval through faith, they would receive eternal punishment even if they died very young.

    6) Next he says his view is correct, I am just not bright enough to understand. Sounds like he is a legend in his own mind. Folks who think they are the smartest person in the room almost always are mistaken. :)

    7) Lastly Winman says "if sin could be inherited" as if that was the argument. LOL God can visit the sins of the father upon all the generations that hate God. Scripture say God's judgment of the sin of Adam resulted in condemnation to all men, Romans 5:18.
     
    #148 Van, Jun 4, 2013
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OH, I agree winman that it was necessary for Him to become flesh. But IMO and from other scriptures in comparison, there was more to it than Jesus just being tested as a man.

    His deity was also being tested...

    Luke 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.​


    All of the heresies that followed after Jesus ascension into heaven and plagued the church denied either His humanity or His deity.

    From this scripture we also see the arrogance of the devil.
    The verb form is that of a command, the imperative.

    The creature commanding the Creator, the Son of God.

    HankD
     
    #149 HankD, Jun 4, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  10. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Actually, Satan was attempting to tempt Jesus to quit acting like a man and act like God. This is not why Jesus came in the flesh. Jesus had to defeat Satan as a man, not as God to redeem man. Again, it is no contest or test for God to defeat Satan, so it would have been nonsensical for the Spirit to lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted if he could not sin.

    Jesus had to come and live his entire life as a man under the law, he was subject to the same weaknesses and infirmities we are. He had to resist and fight sin the same way a man does, by listening to and trusting God's word and prayer. Even when Jesus performed miracles, he did it in the same manner as prophets that came before him, in the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not perform a single miracle until after the Holy Ghost came upon him after he was baptized.

    Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Notice scripture says Jesus became obedient unto death. Jesus did not have to die, he said so himself.

    Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
    53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

    See, when we think Jesus HAD to perform a certain way and had no choice we are in disagreement with scripture. Jesus clearly implies that he could have chosen not to be captured and taken to the cross.
     
    #150 Winman, Jun 4, 2013
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  11. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Jesus was fully man, and fully God. Now, He as a man, had hunger, thirst, need of "bathroom breaks", pain, growth, etc., all things that we as humans go through. Yet, His deity was never lessened while He was here as a human. God can not lie, and Jesus IS God, so therefore, Jesus could not lie.
     
    #151 convicted1, Jun 4, 2013
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    AMEN brother!!! :wavey:
     
    #152 Amy.G, Jun 4, 2013
  13. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I think it more proper to say Jesus WOULD NOT lie. It is not that he was unable.

    Again, why would the Holy Spirit lead Jesus into the wilderness for the express purpose of being tempted by the devil if he could not sin? It would be a meaningless waste of time.

    We can see from scripture that at least at one moment, his will was different than his Father's:

    Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
    43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
    44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

    Jesus was not oblivious to temptation as many here are falsely portraying him. Here in the garden he was sweating blood.

    Folks are acting like temptation simply bounced off of Jesus, not so. Jesus had to struggle against temptation.
     
    #153 Winman, Jun 5, 2013
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    You may be right in this aspect winman, I don't know if there is any real difference between "would not" and "could not".
    when it comes to Christ and His obedience to the Father.

    I remember in theology class when we studied what is called "The immpecability of Jesus Christ" - His sinlessness.

    The professor asked this question:

    Was Jesus not able to sin or was He able not to sin?

    The class was divided.
    We weren't graded by giving his (the professor) personal answer but if we were able to support our answer with scripture and a reasonable hermaneutic.

    One thing we can all agree - He "did not" sin.

    Still IMO you haven't convinced me that the temptation in the wilderness was to show that He wouldn't sin or (as IMO) He couldn't sin and betray His father by siding with the devil.

    That was my answer as the second person of the Trinity He couldn't betray His father and the bond of agape love even though He was flesh like us.

    Anyway you always support your beliefs with scripture (and the interpretations thereof) even though some are parabolic and subjective.

    I'm not saying He didn't feel the pull of the temptation in His flesh which was very real but (let me put it this way) His love of the Father turned the "wouldn't" into a "couldn't".

    HankD
     
    #154 HankD, Jun 5, 2013
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, we now have 16 pages of mostly off topic twaddle, where you are feeding the the person who denies the many were made sinners. Nothing anyone can say will alter the mind of someone who rewrites scripture to fit his or her doctrine. Witness my efforts to discuss Calvinism.

    1) We know we are conceived in sin, brought forth in iniquity, Psalm 51:5. We know our iniquity causes a separation from God.

    2) We know we are by nature children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3. Thus we are conceived in a fallen, corrupted condition, otherwise we would be as Winman wrongly claims children of God from the get go.

    3) We know that we start out condemned because of unbelief, John 3:18, therefore anytime before we believed, we were condemned, i.e. at conception.

    4) We know that the many, everyone "in Adam" were made sinners, Romans 5:19, meaning the consequence of Adam's sin, separation from God and corruption of his spirit, is applied to each of us at conception, i.e. when God forms our spirit within us.

    5) We know that Christ died for all men, He laid down His life as a ransom for all, and became the propitiation for the whole world. Thus the whole world needed redemption including those who do not know their right hand from their left.

    6) And we know that only those that receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross, are saved, born spiritually anew, made perfect, holy and blameless through His death. And we receive that reconciliation when God credits our faith, as flawed as it may be, as righteousness and puts us spiritually in Christ, where we are made alive together with Christ. Thus we were dead, spiritually separated from God, before we were made alive
     
    #155 Van, Jun 5, 2013
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was tempted as to his humanity, but NEVER as to His deity, as he was ONLY human born w/o the Sin nature, so there was NOTHING there to cause/make Him to sin!
     
    #156 Yeshua1, Jun 5, 2013
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    he felt and experienced the temptation to commit sin, but NOT exactly like we all do, for he was sinless in His humanity, and was also Deity as to His nature!

    If anything, he probably felt and experienced it more intensely, for being Holy ANYdarkness wouild burn to Him!
     
    #157 Yeshua1, Jun 5, 2013
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    we KNOW that jesus ONLY atoned for the sins of those whom the father had chosen to be saved by His death, and that only there are the ones able to receive jesus thru faith!
     
    #158 Yeshua1, Jun 5, 2013
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well, you can't say Jesus did not have the ability to say, "I know him not", speaking of his Father, because he literally said that as a hypothetical.

    Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

    Jesus had the ability to say, "I know him not", because he actually said these words. I believe the answer is that Jesus WOULD not say these words as pertaining to his Father, because he chose to always be perfectly truthful, just as he chose to allow himself to be taken in the garden and crucified when he could have done otherwise. We KNOW he could have done otherwise because he directly implied this to Peter.
     
    #159 Winman, Jun 5, 2013
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Fiction

    Here is a typical Calvinist assertion, something is known, yet no verse that says what is asserted is provided. We know, on the other hand, that the false teacher who denied the blood of Jesus, was bought. We know Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, i.e. all mankind, 1 John 2:2. We know Jesus laid down his life as a ransom for all, which includes all those subsequently saved by His blood.
     
    #160 Van, Jun 6, 2013
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