Featured "Sold Under Sin" - Rom. 7:14

Hmmmmmm, maybe. Or, maybe becaue you're unwilling to concede anything on any topic of debate, they bow out? I am not being snooty here, but that's why I bow out of a lot of debates on here. When somone is unwilling to at least see their POV, they're gonna bow out.

 

Because the guy is so wrapped up in himself.

He probably reads his own posts over and over and over.

The sad part is that he thinks he knows more than anyone. I showed several scholars that believed Romans 7:14-25 is speaking of Paul as an unregenerate man, he simply blew them off without a second thought.

If you believe Paul is speaking of himself as a saved man here, you would have to believe he was the most unsuccessful Christian ever, that sin and his flesh was in total control and that he could not stop sinning.

This alone easily shows his view to be total error, but he will NEVER admit that. His ego is HUGE.

 

You are batting 1.000 Willis!

The guy is so full of himself that it is a total waste of time to talk to him. He thinks he is infallible. I learned a long time ago not to debate him, I don't know why I allowed myself to get sucked into a debate with him again.

He is a legend in his own mind.

Don't fall for that "Biblicist" stuff, he is a fanatic Calvinist to the core, he rejects any view that would refute Calvinism, such as the very passage we are discussing here.

Paul wanted to do good, he delighted in the law of God, but he could not find a way to be perfect, therefore he was brought under subjection and captivity to sin.

All you have to do is sin one time and you are "sold unto sin". Sin owns you and he pays you death. The only escape is through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

What I mean Brother, is that in a debate there is give and take. With you, it vis always take and no give.

 

You are speaking 100% truth here Willis, but he won't listen to you.

 

I am glad to see Willis has caught on to you dude. Nobody can tell you anything, you are hopeless.

I bet even your own family can't stand you.

 

I wasn't going to respond until you misrepresented what I really said, then I felt a need to defend myself.

Dude, you are oblivious to your own problem. You are an ego-maniac so wrapped up in himself you cannot see just how messed up you really are. Nobody can tell you anything.

If there's one thing I know about Willis, it's that he is a nice guy who does not try to offend anyone. If he tells you that you do not listen to others, you should take heed, he is telling you the truth.

But why am I telling you anything? You are so stubborn and obstinate, nobody can get through to you.

 

This thread has gotten ridiculous with all the juvenile "dude" this & "dude" that & personal attacks. Convicted1 seems to have jumped in solely for the personal attacks. When someone turns to personal attacks, it is generally because of a lack of maturity, a weak argument, or both. Only the persons using personal attacks know for sure. The rest of us can only speculate.

 

I don't know if you are aware or not, but Willis has been leaning toward Calvinism for about the last month, so if he called Biblicist out, it is legit.

I am not a nice guy, I tell it like it is whether you like it or not. But if Willis says you don't listen, he is telling the truth.

I will say the same to you as I said to Biblicist, if you think Paul is describing himself as a Christian in Romans 7:14-25, then you would have to believe Paul was an absolute failure as a Christian. You would have to believe that Paul is saying sin and his sin nature has total control over him and that he could not obey God even with the help of the Holy Spirit. As Adam Clarke, the famous theologian said;

Any truly intelligent person would reject Biblicist's view, it makes no sense whatsoever.

 

I don't care if you talk nice to me, I believe you are teaching absolute error. I consider you an enemy of truth.

You can report me, whatever. I really don't care if you are offended or not.

 

Let me see if i have the argument correct.

Biblicist states that Paul is contending within himself, because the flesh has desires and influences that must be constantly beaten down. Further, he presents that Paul is speaking in the present tense showing the use of "I" (exposing his personal struggle).

Winman considers this a biographical statement of Paul before conversion, and no longer applies to Paul as a believer. He referenced a supporting source, yet, Winman also sees Paul's struggle as common in believers. (I am doing this totally by memory - so if I have not been true to Winman's thinking, I apologize.)

Two considerations for those who are reading the thread.

First, Paul makes the statements as the war of flesh and Spirit as his current condition - not in the past tense.

Paul concludes with the cry "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" This is placing the eye upon the future.

Then, Paul immediately goes back to the present tense and answers his own question, "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

BUT Paul doesn't stop there, he goes on bringing practical application to the believers, too, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."


Often folks separate these two chapters when they are to be taken entirely together. The "Therefore" continues the conclusion of the struggle between the "law of the flesh" and the "law of the Spirit."

When will the final victory over the flesh occur? Look only to what has caught Paul's own gaze, "Who will set me free from the body of this death?" Even though the answer is first presented in chapter 7, the clarification and application of the answer continues throughout chapter 8.


At the end of Chapter 8, there is this outstanding declaration in answer to the question of Chapter 7 that Paul uses in the present tense.

"38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

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Because the present tense is used throughout this part of Romans (exceptions noted) there is no support for the claim that this is to be considered biographical.

HOWEVER, it is important to note that the life BEFORE conversion will set up patterns of behavior and thought that establish trails to sin that the believer can so easily find.

No doubt, Paul often recalled and regretted his life before conversion which can also be why he struggled in the flesh and the statements of Romans 7. Therefore, it isn't a completely invalid point. A point in which EVERY true believer knows and has personal witness in the battle.



Secondly, there isn't a true believer who has not had this struggle, this war of the worlds, taking place in them self from the moment of first Godly conviction.

I know Winman doesn't hold to "sinless perfection," HOWEVER, one could read this section of Roman's and conclude that Paul is stating that the believer is made already perfect in the eyes of God. That the account of the flesh is paid in full.

To some this thinking presents the license to sin.

BUT Paul dealt with that question BEFORE presenting the battle of "wills" so that there would be NO mistake as to not being granted such a license. (see chapter 6)

Personally, (this is my own view) I find it so very refreshing that Paul had this struggle, too. That this man of superior intellect fought, just as I and all true believers. It isn't how smart, gifted, talented, or whatever that prevents this struggle, it is and will continue.

BUT are believer's (like Paul stated) "convinced..."

Often in the war of wills there is a resignation to the flesh, a tiredness or weariness of battle.

In that time, Paul would state, "I am convinced..." Present tense, right now, in this world, among all the pressures and pleasures it has to offer, "I am convinced..."

Believer, is there something that you consider would separate you from the "love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord?" Paul said, "I am convinced... NOTHING can separate US ...."

I love the way Paul included ME in that statement - so very thoughtful!