Some false views of Election examined and refuted

HP: In your questioning, you obviously confuse passive influences upon the will with the will's voluntary choices it must make in all moral decisions. Man can have many desires, and God can even put within us desires, but desire in and of itself is an influence that can be resisted. God drags no one. He makes an offer and requires the will of man to yield their wills in accordance to proper desires or influences. God’s influences and desires are passive in nature, and can be resisted. Proof of this lies in the fact that men are held accountable, rewarded or punished, as a result of the choices they make.

Your questions make God out to be coercing those by force to be saved, or coercing or forcing those to be damned by withholding some needed force of ‘dragging’ Scripture paints a completely different picture. God stands at the door and knocks, Man is required to open the door and willing allow God to enter in. ‘Come unto me,’ is the Scriptural mandate, and God will give you rest. You, ‘take up your cross and follow me.’ “Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand!’ 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.’ “If ye will turn from your wicked ways.’

Over and over Scripture calls upon man to exercise their voluntary will in acceptance of the offer God makes and the influences to right choices He grants to man. Salvation is not accomplished by God coercing, forcing, or dragging man, but is accomplished as man chooses voluntarily to comply with the Scriptural commands to yield their wills in accordance to the passive influences God places in the path of man’s heart. ’Choose you this day whom ye shall serve,‘ whether it is disobedience unto death, or righteousness and obedience unto life eternal. The choice is ours to make.

 

helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

No I am saying that the supernatural DRAWING OF ALL by God ENABLES the CHOICE in ALL that depravity DISABLES.


I am saying that those who THEN choose (and surely some of them will) to OPEN the door will find that Christ DOES COME IN and fellowship with them as stated in REv 3.

I am saying that those who IMAGINE that being alone on the INSIDE WITHOUT Christ -- is a way of saying "SAVED" have a false view of the gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

HP: To be drawn is not to be forced or coerced when speaking of drawing moral agents in matters of praise or blame. When Scripture speaks of God drawing man, force or coercion is out of the picture. God draws by granting to man a passive influence that can be resisted.
Take the case of Jonah. Here God drew Jonah by allowing certain circumstances to come into his life, but that is not to say that in the end Jonah still had to willingly yield himself to God’s plan or face further consequences. If God holds man accountable for his actions, man must be able to do something other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances. It is a first truth of reason, planted within the breast of every man by God, that in order to do anything blameworthy or praiseworthy, one must be free to make a choice. No drawing of God, in any matters man is to held accountable for, is of such a nature that man could not do something other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances.

HP: Not so. You confuse mere desire with the will forming intents. Before I had any desire to serve God, God came to me via His drawing. It was the drawing of the Holy Spirit that placed within my breast desire to be obedient to the demands of the gospel. Just the same, those desires in no way were coercive in nature. They did not force me to act in a given way. My will had to choose to act in accordance to those desires in order to be saved.
If you have no other possibility other than to choose Rocky Road, you have not chosen Rocky Road. Choice involves having two or more possible consequent for any given antecedent. If there is only one possible consequent, as in your illustration concerning Rocky Road, choice is impossible to conceive of. You are painting a picture of one strapped to a gurney, having ice cream forced down your throat, and when the muscles of your throat involuntarily move to allow the lungs to breathe, moving the ice cream down your esophagus, you exclaim, you ‘chose’ to swallow it. No you did not ‘choose’ to swallow anything. Choice involves freedom, and in the case of the Rocky Road being forced down your throat, freedom was impossible to exercise.
Who cannot see that if one has only one possible consequent for a given antecedent that no choice is possible? Your explanation of having a choice is no choice at all, but rather the involuntary responses to force or coercion.

Salvation and obedience to God’s conditions do not operate upon the will with force or coercion. To suggest otherwise, as to associate God’s drawing with force or coercion, is to misunderstand God’s working with moral agents.

HP: First, BR and myself do not agree on God’s drawing. BR claims that God draw all in the sense of granting to all the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel. I disagree. God certainly draws all men by granting to them some knowledge of a God, and certainly convicts them of sin in one degree ro another, but Scripture no where states that all have had the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel as BR falsely claims.
Just because God has placed within every man’s breast some longing for God and some abilities to comprehend Him, does not mean that such a drawing will irresistibly land them in salvation, or that everyman will be drawn to salvation, or that everyman will even hear about salvation. God’s drawing, or influence upon man may indeed be irresistible in the sense that man’s will cannot stop God from granting to man some light concerning Himself, for before man is and before man has his first thought, God Is. Just the same, man can indeed reject the drawing of God, in the sense that man can choose to reject it once it is granted, and to do despite God’s influences.
Quote:
HP:He makes an offer and requires the will of man to yield their wills in accordance to proper desires or influences. God’s influences and desires are passive in nature, and can be resisted.

HP: If I were to believe the story in accordance to the explanation of drawing, as a force or coercion, the story would go like this. God blamed Balaam for the donkey stopping and sentenced him to an eternal hell because it stopped. Do you see anything wrong JA?

HP: Sure God can and may often override our wills, but when he does, such as in stopping the donkey, God does not directly blame or praise us for that which was beyond our abilities, will, and control.

 

Almost correct.

In fact HP claims that the Gospel proclaimed to all has to be "a certain level of story telling".

Bob denies that point and uses Romans 1, Romans 2 and Romans 10 to prove it.

 

The DRAW that we see in John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" speaks to that metaphore of leading someone to Christ.

In Rev 3 we see it in the form of Christ knocking on the door AND enabling the person to both hear AND open the door.

in Christ,

bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel



I am saying that those who THEN choose (and surely some of them will) to OPEN the door will find that Christ DOES COME IN and fellowship with them as stated in REv 3.
[/quote]

As Already stated this is a metaphore for LEAD and ENABLE.

The VOICE of Christ and the knocking on the door done by Christ as well as the supernatural ENABLING of the one ALONE on the inside so they can open the door if they so choose.

Your issue is with God on that point -- the definition CLEARLY allows for someone to be lead to the Gospel and the impulse on the heart to accept Christ is of the Holy Spirit -- but no force.. the person is ENABLED to choose.

You are "spinning the idea" not reading the points and responding so we keep having to give the SAME response back again - until you actually acknowledge it and then go to the NEXT step in the discussion. So now ACCEPTING the answer given AND THEN asking your question (which would make far more sense to test the answer given) the QUESTION BECOMES "hmm so you SAY that all mankind is being ENABLED to choose and given access to Christ -- where some CHOOSE to accept and others do not CHOOSE to accept salvation. So do we SEE That when we look at the world? DO WE SEE people in the same groups where SOME appear to choose the path of Christ while many others REJECT?? Hmm yes we do!!"

Your tactic of "continually circling back to hear the same answer again" is tiresome.

in Christ,

Bob

 

HP: May the Lord grant you wisdom.

 

OK - it is one thing to say that I missed some pointed question "asked" it is another thing to claim that you are asking questions that KEEP GETTING ANSWERED and then asking the same one again.

Never-the-less the Door of Rev 3 is the door to the heart/soul/conscience when Christ says "I stand at the door and knock"


Adam Clarke
http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerev3.htm

Be zealous] Be in earnest, to get your souls saved, They had no zeal; this was their bane. He now stirs them up to diligence in the use of the means of grace and repentance for their past sins and remissness.

Verse 20. Behold, I stand at the door and knock] There are many sayings of this kind among the ancient rabbins; thus in Shir Hashirim Rabba, fol.
25, 1: "God said to the Israelites, My children, open to me one door of repentance, even so wide as the eye of a needle, and I will open to you doors through which calves and horned cattle may pass." In Sohar Levit, fol. 8, col. 32, it is said: "If a man conceal his sin, and do not open it before the holy King, although he ask mercy, yet the door of repentance shall not be opened to him. But if he open it before the holy blessed God, God spares him, and mercy prevails over wrath; and when he laments, although all the doors were shut, yet they shall be opened to him, and his prayer shall be heard." Christ stands - waits long, at the door of the sinner's heart; he knocks - uses judgments, mercies, reproofs, exhortations, &c., to induce sinners to repent and turn to him; he lifts up his voice - calls loudly by his word, ministers, and Spirit.
If any man hear] If the sinner will seriously consider his state, and attend to the voice of his Lord.
And open the door] This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
I will come in to him] I will manifest myself to him, heal all his backslidings, pardon all his iniquities, and love him freely.
Will sup with him] Hold communion with him, feed him with the bread of life.
And he with me.] I will bring him at last to dwell with me in everlasting glory.

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerev3.htm

 

I have to admit sometimes I do not come back as often as I should to view the thread and see what "the latest game is" --

7 ""And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:
8 " I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 "Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lieI will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.
10 "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 " I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.


Notice that Rev 3 message to Philadelphia approves of the Christian walk of the Christians of that church (of that church age prophetically). This message speaks to a faithful group of Christians who are enduring are approved are persevering.

Also this references a door in the sanctuary where Christ ministers as high priest – opened by Christ during the Church age of this specific church. What a huge contrast is the experience of the Church of Philadelphia to the last church age – the church of Laodicea.

But the good news for Laodicea and their CLOSED door - Christ is standing at their door and knocking. In this case of the hearts door -- Christ knocks and "if anyone hears AND OPENS" then HE will come in.

Rev 3
20 "Behold, [b]I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears[/b] My voice and opens[/b] the door, I will come in to him[/b] and will dine with him, and he with Me.

The shocking news for many of our Calvinist brethren is that there is NO salvation apart from Christ. Being separated from Christ -- you CAN not be saved without coming back into fellowship with Him. Rev 3:20 is good about showing the way to Salvation and Christ the AUTHOR of salvation stands at the door of the heart - of EVERY heart -- knocking for HE is the light that coming into the world "enlightens EVERY man" John 1.

John's message in both Rev and John 1 is clear and consistent!

 

When I point out that there is no salvation apart from Christ and that this point comes as a shock to many Calvinists -- Jarthur001 responds with the apparently vaccuous

 

Certainly Daniel is among those taken into capitivity when THE NATION of Israel was so separated from God and in such rebellion against God that they were choosing idols over the true God of Creation - the God of the Messiah.

But Daniel -- though also taken captive -- did not live APART from a strong supernatural relationship with God - in constant fellowship with God. He was not as one "ALONE on the inside with Christ on the outside knocking". Daniel was among the faithful as those of Philadelphia. He was one IN fellowship with Christ and persevering!

There is no way to bend or stretch this into "saved saints without Christ - saved and yet separated from Christ".

No amount of scripture wrenching and twisting in Heb 12 or in 2 Sam 7 is going to get you there.

in Christ,

Bob