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Featured Some of the best Conditional “IF” Statements in the NT

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Dec 22, 2016.

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  1. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    John 14:23IF anyone loves Me, he will keep (obey) My word;
    and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
    John 15:14 • You are My friends, IF you do whatever I command you.

    Does anyone get into heaven who does not love Jesus, is not His friend, does not obey Him?

    Romans 8:13-14 • For IF you live according to the flesh you will die;
    but IF by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
    For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


    Romans 11:21-22 • For if God did not spare the natural branches (the Israelites),
    He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God:
    on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness.
    Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


    1 Corinthians 15:2 • the gospel which I preached to you … by which also you are saved,
    IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.


    Galatians 5:18 • But IF you are being led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    Colossians 1:21-23 • He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death,
    to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —
    IF indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,
    and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel


    Hebrews 3:6,14 • Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are
    IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
    … For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning
    of our confidence steadfast to the end


    Hebrews 10:36-39 • For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done
    the will of God, you may receive the promise: “… Now the just shall live by faith;
    but IF anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
    But we are not of those who draw back to perdition …

    So, the writer is a seer who knows who will do what in the future?
    No, this is wishful thinking … he does not say that God told him they would not fall back!

    1 John 1:7-9 • But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship
    with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
    IF we confess our sins (to Him), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
    and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


    1 John 2:3 • Now by this we know that we know Him, IF we keep His commandments.

    The Greek in these passages do, in fact, mean "IF". In the Greek, there are sentence constructions
    that indicate whether or not something is conditional. The Greek word "ean" can mean since,
    or therefore, but when it is used in a construction that has "de" at the beginning of the sentence,
    it is making a conditional statement. Therefore, the author really is saying what the "IF" implies.
    (de) Condition #1 is true, "IF" (ean) condition #2 is met.

    Mercifully, I have left out a couple of the most troubling/condemning passages!

    Many other verses are conditional, even though they don’t have an “IF” in them, for example:
    Revelation 21:7-8 • He who overcomes shall inherit all things … and he shall be My son.
    This is the same as saying …
    IF you overcome, you shall inherit all things … and you shall be My son.
    Note: This is Jesus’ definition of who is an overcomer:
    Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
    as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


    Some of the passages above are members of the category of verses which teach us:
    Believers must endure in their faith until the end of their lives to receive eternal life!
    Yes, both sanctification and salvation are life-long processes.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I think perhaps you have misjudged the other posistion (I am taking this in a Cal-Arm context as this is the category you posted under).

    The question is not whether or not those are conditional statements but if they are prescriptive, descriptive, or both in terms of the regenerate believer. I believe they are both (these are not only demanded of the believer, they are identifying characteristics because the Spirit works in the believer to make it so).
     
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  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Please point out the "de" at the beginning or anywhere else in this passage you quoted.

    και εν τουτω γινωσκομεν οτι εγνωκαμεν αυτον εαν τας εντολας αυτου τηρωμεν

    And you are aware, are you not, that δε is a conjunction functioning as a adversative particle, and what that implies, right?

    By the way, where did you study Greek at the graduate and/or post graduate level?
     
  4. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    I quoted the section about the Greek from a Moderator in another forum (like a year ago).
    Sorry, I assumed he knew what he was talking about.
    When it comes to Greek, I sure don't ... that's why I use several NTs (and commentaries).
     
  5. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Okay, but IMO, each believer may choose to live a sinning lifestyle.
    They all have free will and are not robots.
    Plus, many today are taught OSAS ... and so think they can do this and go to heaven.
     
  6. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    You clearly don't understand the position of osas (that's really not an accurate phrase to describe eternal security).
     
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  7. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    Sanctification is the work of the Spirit of God. Yes, we are called to walk it out, but it's the life of Jesus Christ inside of us...


    Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


    Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I understand. It is quite easy to assemble points of another's view and form conclusions that miss their understanding completely. That is what you have done here. One great thing about this board is the diversity represented in these forums. You can learn from people who hold those views instead of their opposition.

    No one is saying what you believe is being taught by those doctrines.
     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Actually, no. The lost man's will is not free, it is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

    And the saved man's will is not free, it is bound to the law of new life in Christ.

    Actually, no. If you still want to sin maybe you better check your own standing before God. You see, when a man is regenerated God changes his "wanter." The things he used to want he no longer wants and the things he never wanted before those are the things he now wants.

    But that is not to say the saved man is free from sin. He still sins but it bothers his renewed conscience which drawns him to confess and forsake his sin.

    If new life in Christ is not ETERNAL (everlasting, never ending) then Christ is a liar, for saying it was, and thus a sinner and can't even save Himself, let alone anyone else.

    No! I would have "God be true and every man a liar." Eternal life is eternal, or it is a lie. The idea that a saved person can lose his salvation is a lie straight out of the pit of hell! :(
     
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  10. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I think perhaps the main disagreement about the eternal security of the believer is conversion. We take conversion to be a supernatural act of God resulting in a "new creation", or regeneration. But many today have reduced conversion to a mere decision with no effect on the person.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Correct, as those passages tell us wht the lost do, that the characteristic of the saved to be te ones to actually abide in Jesus, are faithful, are obeying Him etc!
    Its like in Hebrews, when he describes those who look saved, but in the end show are not buy them not being found in Christ!
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We re new creations in Christ, now have a new nature and Holy Spirit, and Bible states that God will complete His work in us until end!

    We will stumble/fall, but will be shown faithful in the end, for he cannot deny Himself!
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Except the saved now have new natures and the Holy Spirit, and will not desire to sin ongoing, aswill still sin, bu will also desire to confess that, and keep on serving God...

    We love Jesus for who He is and what He did, so why keep sinning and ause our relationship with Him?

    God forbid to be saved, ad just sin away, as per Paul, as he rebuked that thinking!
     
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I'd also like to add that the OP is making statements in the Bible to be If/then statements when they are not.

    Majority of the time, you are adding in your own "then" statement, the conclusion. You are adding to the Word of God when you do that.

    These are not conditional if/then statements.

    No hypothesis no conclusion.

    Like JonC said, they are most likely descriptive or prescriptive, not conditional if/then statements.
     
  16. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Sorry, if I was not clear ... I was talking about born-again Christians.

    And, everyone has free-will to sin or not to sin.

    My favorite example is Romans 6 ... Paul says CHOOSE who's slave you will be!

    Another one is Revelation 21:7-8 ... ALL (habitual) liars will inherit the Lake of Fire!
    IF born-again Christians are excluded, then Jesus is a liar!
     
    #16 Samuels, Dec 22, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  17. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    You have the free will to go with all of the rationalizations, excuses, etc. that you want to go with.
     
    #17 Samuels, Dec 22, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  18. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Yes, the truth is American churches today are filled with habitual (unrepentant) sinners!
    Are we to conclude that they are false believers: tares, goats, bad fish, etc.?
    Are we to conclude that they have never received the indwelling Holy Spirit?

    In John 14:23, I see Jesus saying that He and the Father will reside with the believer
    in the form of the Holy Spirit, IF he keeps (obeys) Jesus' commandments.
    So much for remaining forever!
    How does John 14:23 line up with Jesus' promise that the Spirit will remain forever?
    Perhaps, it is assuming that the believer will be obedient.
     
    #18 Samuels, Dec 22, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  19. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I just go with what the Bible says/teaches

    Let's try an example...

    If you love me you'll keep my commandments.

    The only if/then is related to The Believer and his actions. If you love Jesus you will obey Him. It DOESN'T say, if you don't keep His commandments you will spend eternity in Hell.
     
  20. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    In the OP, I asked ...
    Does anyone get into heaven who does not love Jesus, is not His friend, does not obey Him?

    You have answered in the affirmative.

    IMO, you need to figure out what salvation is all about.
    For example, John 10:26-27 and John 17:3.
    It is NOT about what you have learned in church.
    It IS about what the NT teaches.
     
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