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Featured Some strong hard evidence for The Mark of the Beast

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Aug 30, 2014.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is still irrelevant.
    Instead of posting it again, read my answer here:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2145173&postcount=8

    The Great Tribulation is not local; it is world-wide.
    It will account for half the world's population being killed or about 4 billion if he should come soon.
    It is against unbelievers, not believers.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    If you start reading at the beginning of the Book which is generally the wise thing to do you will discover who the Book is written to and who it is written for

    Revelations 1:1-6
    1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    2. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
    3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
    4. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
    5. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    6. And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


    Verse 1 shows that the Book is written to the servants of jesus Christ. These are the "true believers", the Saints, in other words, Christians. In Revelation 1:3 we read the first of seven blessings or beatitudes announced in the Book of Revelation [Revelation 1:3, 14:13, 16:15, 19:9 20:6, 22:7, 22:14]: Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein. Those who hear or read the words that the Apostle records and keep those words are declared blessed. These seven blessings recorded in the Book of Revelation are for the servants of Jesus Christ, the "true believers" the Christians.

    Writing under the direction of the Holy Spirit the beloved Apostle, John, does not neglect to remind us of the love of Jesus Christ, God the Son, for His chosen ones. He does not neglect to remind us that because of that love He shed His own blood, blood that cleansed us of our grievous sins against the Triune God. The us are the "true believers", Christians.

    We also see reference to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the first begotten of the dead. God forbid that we should ever leave our “first love”. Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to date to rise from the dead to die no more. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

    Acts 26:22,23, KJV
    22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
    23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


    Sometimes it is good to take a peak at the end and see what is there.

    Revelation 22:16, 17
    16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


    The Book of Revelation is written to and for the Christian, no one else. It is not about some fictitious pre-trib removal of the Church and a so-called GRrreat Seven Year Tribulation. It is a picture in apocalyptic and sometimes prophetic language of the struggle between good and evil until GOD decides to bring it all to an end. It tells the "true believer", the Christian, that regardless of what happens in this life, through Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior, we win!
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Every book in the Bible is written to Christians or believers (OT books). No one denies that. But the purpose of each book is different. The Book of Esther, for example, doesn't even mention the word "God." Yet it was a book written to Jewish believers. The Book of Judges contain some of the most gory details of history in Jewish history, even to the point of genocide of one of their own tribes. But it still written to their own people.

    What about Revelation?
    Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
    --This is the key verse. It divides the book into three parts.
    I. The things which thou hast seen. 1:10-18. John had just seen Jesus Christ in all his glory. It was Christ that commanded him to write these things down.

    II. The things which are. The things which are, are the churches in chapters two and three. They were seven historical churches which existed at that time. Jesus wrote a letter to each one.

    III. The things which shall be hereafter. Chapters four and five are an interlude which present John with a heavenly vision as it is in the present.
    However, from chapter six onward is all future. They are the things which are to come.

    Everything in the book is written to Christians. Why would prophesy not be written to Christians? What would cause you to think that?

    The same type of "comforting scripture" is written in 2Thes. ch. 1, and you don't question the authenticity of the writings of Paul:

    2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The things which a person has seen or done are the the events prior to the present time. The present time is 1:45 AM EST. So anything done prior to 1:45 EST are in the past. The words I am typing now are the things which are. It is 1:47 AM EST plus a few seconds. That represents the things which are. It is now 1:48 AM EST so you see I type slow with two fingers. The things that are hearafter are those things that happen after I post this, which is off to bed.

    Using the rationale you present for the interpretation of Revelation is, to put it mildly, sheer nonsense! The proof is that it has led to nothing but dissension within the Christian community as has all of pre-trib dispensationalism.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So those holding to dispensationalism. especially pre trib aspect, are teahing heresy then among the bethern?
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't understand your rationale, as you put it, or more aptly, your logic.
    He did what Christ commanded him to do.
    He wrote what he saw. He just saw Christ in all his glory. He wrote about it.
    He wrote about the present, that is that churches that presently existed.
    He wrote about the future--the rest of the book.

    That is how the book is divided. Most commentaries that I have read divide the book that way. BTW, after chapter three there is no mention of the church again. IOW, the rapture must have taken place.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You understand! John wrote about the Churches that existed 2000 years ago. The future, or hereafter, is the time that immediately follows what he wrote about the Churches of 2000 years ago. The future, or hereafter, does not start 2000 years later, and counting!
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Okay, John wrote of churches in his time that is 2,000 years ago from our time. The future started immediately after that. What was John going to see from the present (the time of the churches) hereafter? And then the Lord revealed it to him.
    From John's time, he was still expecting the Lord's return. The last promise and the last prayer are contained in the last chapter of the book:

    [FONT=&quot]Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.[/FONT]
    --John prayed for Jesus to come. Jesus is yet to come. John wrote ca. 98 A.D. He did not come in 70 A.D. He is yet to come.
    John made no prediction of 1,000 years or of 2,000 years. He did not put a time limit of the coming of Christ.
    Christ himself said no man knows the time of his coming. He will come as a thief in the night when no one expects it. It will be sudden, immanent, unexpected.
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying the Rapture took place ~2000 years ago and John was left behind to finish the Book??????
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    There is a common argument given for the pretribulation rapture of the Church that I believe is worth discussing at this time. The argument is made that because the words church or churches do not appear after the completion of the third chapter of the Revelation, the Church cannot be present during the events described in the succeeding chapters. The word churches is used eleven times in Chapters 1-3, the word church is used seven times in these same chapters. The word church or churches does not appear again until Chapter 22, Verse 16. However, the term saints is used in Revelation 5:8; 8:3, 4; 11:18; 13:7, 10; 14:12; 15:3; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:8; and 20:9. The term redeemed is used in Revelation 5:9 and 14:3, 4. Both of these terms are characteristic of the Church, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ when found elsewhere in the New Testament. The appearance of the churches again in Chapter 22, Verse 16 and the succeeding verse is interesting and informative.

    Revelation 22:16,17, KJV
    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


    Notice two things,

    1. Jesus sent His angel to testify of these things in the churches, and
    2. The Spirit and the Bride, the Church, give the invitation to come and take of the water of life freely.

    These are strange statements to make if the Church is inconsequential during much of the period covered in Revelation; is gone during the tribulation period, and Jesus Christ rules with a ‘rod of iron’ during the millennium.

    Now we examine the appearance of the words Israel or Jew in the Book of Revelation. The word Israel appears three times in the Book of Revelation, Chapters 2, 7, and 21; the word Jews appears only twice, Chapters 2 and 3, and there the reference is to false Jews. So we see that a reference to Israel appears only once during that part of the Book that is presumed to represent the seven year tribulation and Jacob’s time of trouble’. The first time the word Israel is used [2:14] the reference is to the false prophet Balaam and his role in the seduction of Israel enroute to the promise land. In Chapter 7 the name Israel is used in the discussion of the servants of God who are sealed. The next occasion [21:12] the name is used in the description of the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. Again, Israel is referred to only one time, and no reference is made to the Jews, during that period in which it is claimed that the Church is absent. Strange indeed is the absence of the words Jew or Israel in the 16 chapters of Revelation written specifically, according to pre-trib dispensational theology, for them while in the remainder of the New Testament the words Jew or Jews occur 188 times and the words Israel or Israelite occur 73 times.

    It is interesting to note that there are other books in the New Testament where the words church or churches are not used. The words do not appear in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and John. If one believes that the Church was not established until Pentecost, that is not necessarily unusual. It is interesting, however, that the book that many pre-trib dispensationalists claim is the Gospel of the Kingdom [written by a Jewish believer who collected taxes for Rome] is the Gospel in which the Church is first proclaimed. The words church or churches are not mentioned in 1st & 2nd Peter, 1st & 2nd John, and Jude. Can we then argue the absence of the Church? The words are also absent from the first 15 chapters of Romans and occur only twice in Hebrews.

    To show that the absence or presence of a word is not decisive consider the Book of Esther in the Old Testament. The editor of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible notes:
    Does this absence of reference to God mean that He was absent or that the book of Esther should not be in the Canon? Obviously not. The book of Esther was written to show God’s watch care over His Covenant people through whom He would bring the Saviour into the world.

    In conclusion, there are books in the New Testament in which the words church or churches are not mentioned. Therefore, the absence of the word church in Chapters 4-19 of the book of Revelation is scant justification to claim that the Church is absent during the period covered by these chapters. However, I believe the best argument against a pretribulation “Rapture” is contained in the proper interpretation of John 5:28,29.

    Alan Johnson writing in the Expositors Bible Commentary, Volume 12, page 461 explains the absence of the word ‘church’ as follows:
    Walvoord in Major Bible Prophecies, page 279, writes:
    However, as noted previously the word Jew is not mentioned in Chapters 4-19. The word Israel is mentioned only one time [Revelation 7:4]. The word Gentile is mentioned only one time [Revelation 11:2]. The word “redeemed” occurs only three times, one [Revelation 5:9] referring to the redeemed in Heaven, the remaining two in reference to the 144,000 on Mt Zion [Revelation 14:3, 4]. The word Saints occurs 13 times. Therefore, Walvoord’s statement that believers are referred to as believing Gentiles or believing Jews is not correct. In fact the words believer, believers, believing, believe, or belief do not occur in the Book of Revelation.
    !
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What is your point? There are seven local churches mentioned in chapters two and three. Never again are any local churches mentioned. Never again are any "earthly" churches mentioned. "Redeemed" can refer to many things. The verses you use usually refer to those that are already in heaven. Remember John is in heaven and the angel is showing him heavenly scenes. The redeemed in 5:9, for example, are not on earth.

    Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    --This is a heavenly scene. This is not the church. It is the bride. Those that have a new song. Thus it is future.
    Yes, this is the last chapter of the book. It is the conclusion. After all is said and done he once again directs his remarks back to the seven churches (or now those that are reading this book). Scripture is always relevant. Christ always holds out his invitation to come. This goes right against the grain of Calvinism and Reformed Theology.
    Not if it is the conclusion. The conclusion always goes back to the introduction. It sums things up. Besides that the actual Tribulation Period is described between chapters 6 to 19 to be specific.
    There are many more references to Israel than that. They are called by other names. I am not going to list those names here, but it is obvious in the OT, she was called "my beloved," my elect, my chosen ones, etc. Israel is known by many names. What were the other names that Israel had in the Book of Revelation. Some are mentioned in Revelation 12, 7, 14, 18, 19, etc.
    Israel is specifically mentioned here in the first chapter. Do you know why?

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    I have to go now. I will answer the rest later.​
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    All those names were transferred to the Church. Do you know where?

    Verse 7 mentioned those who pierced HIM. Well I see you done beat me to it and quoted the verse!

    :wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The Bride is the Church in case there is confusion on your part. Furthermore the souls of all those who died in Jesus Christ are now in the presence of GOD. These are the ones John saw in Revelation 20:4!:jesus::godisgood:

    Now if you can just find a verse that defends the pre-trib removal of the Church!!!!!!!

    I am not Calvinist and reformed only by Jesus Christ! Actually I wasn't reformed I was made a "new creation in" Jesus Christ!:jesus::godisgood:
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    As I previously replied, the Tribulation is described from chapters 6 to 19 in which you will not find any instance of the Church. It is a picture of God's Wrath being poured out on the unbelievers on the earth. Any reference to the redeemed would be in heaven. The Jews, however, are alive during the Tribulation and will be saved near the end of the Tribulation when Christ comes again.

    Look at this verse:
    Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
    --This is the first verse of the beginning of the conclusion of the book. Look how it is written. God sent his angel to show these things to his servants (the Church) things which must shortly come to past. It was written ca. 98 A.D. before the coming of Christ. It is the personal conclusion of John to the Book of Revelation. And in it is included an invitation to come to salvation, promises of Christ that he is coming again, a prayer of John that Christ will come quickly.
    An irrelevant fact since Jews and "Israel" are referred to by many other names (cf. "woman" ch.12).
    You simply don't know what you are talking about. Israel is mentioned or referred to numerous of times under different titles--far more times than you have mentioned. Your lack of knowledge on this subject is astounding.
    Revelation was written for Christians, as is every book of the NT. None of them were written to Jews, exclusively. There are a couple of books, like Hebrews, that are written to Christians with a Jewish background, but no book written to the nation of Israel, none, Zip, zada, zero!
    Revelation was written to comfort Christians in a time of persecution; to tell them of things to come. We are on the winning side. Christ, our conqueror is coming soon. And when He does come he will save the nation of Israel and establish his Kingdom on earth. Then will come eternity.
    Look in Acts chapter two, written after the gospels. It started then. You don't find the church in the OT either. It started at Pentecost. Much of the Bible is history, like Genesis.
    I don't know what you mean by that. The gospel is defined by Paul in 1Cor.15:1-4, and that is the gospel we preach. The gospel must be defined after the cross. Revelation is progressive.
    And "God" isn't mentioned in Esther. I suppose it was written by an atheist! :rolleyes:
    Each book has a purpose. Context is very important, but the way that you interpret Scripture you have shown many times that you don't care about context.
    I see you beat me to it, except I didn't need Thompson Chain to tell me this.
    I don't need Thompson Chain to tell me that "Jude" is speaking about false teachers and not churches. Likewise the other epistles had different purposes.
    But I can tell you this:
    The Apostle Paul was a missionary--one who started churches.
    He went on 3 missionary journeys and established approximately 100 churches.
    He wrote 13 epistles, every one of them written to local churches or pastors of local churches.
    From chapters 6 to 19 you don't find a single mention of any believer on earth. It is a picture of God's wrath on the ungodly on earth. God doesn't pour out his wrath and vengeance on his own. If you think he does you have a very misguided view of who God is. The Tribulation would be an answer to David's prayer:

    Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
    Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
    Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
    Psa 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.

    (An Imprecatory Psalm) It is a psalm of vengeance. God will take his vengeance upon the ungodly, not his own children.

    The Jews are enumerated and sealed in chapter 7 and again referred to in chapter 14. The redeemed in chapter 5 are in heaven. Saints are usually in heaven. Walvoord's statement is correct. You haven't proved anything.

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    --A picture of belief.

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    --An invitation to believe.

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Believe is found in Revelation. Those that don't believe will be cast into the Lake of Fire. It has much to do with faith or belief.​
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is false!


    Really. I thought Jesus Christ had already been crucified by the Jews in collusion with Rome.


    I know enough to not fall for the false doctrine of pre-trib dispensationalism. You did not!

    As for the OT titles referring to Israel those now apply to the Church as I told you earlier and as GOD through the Apostle Peter tells us:

    1st Peter 2:1-10
    1. Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
    2. As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
    3. If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
    4. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
    5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    7. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


    Because the Kingdom was taken from Israel:

    Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Of course I know you pick and choose which Scripture you believe but I believe all Scripture.


    God saves people one at a time.


    The Church in its NT form was empowered at Pentecost.

    Actually the Gospel is defined in Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    You believe some stuff that is just as silly.
    When you present a single verse of Scripture that proves Darby's pre-trib removal of the Church perhaps you will have graduated to the level where you can talk about context.

    The Apostle Paul was not a dispensationalist and did not believe in a pre-trib removal of the Church either!

    **************

    Make up your mind. Which of these statements is true? The one above or the one below!

    ********************************

    The Jews actually are primarily from the tribe of Judah with the Levites and perhaps some from another tribe. Israel is mentioned the first time in Chapter 7 but if you would read carefully you will see that not all 12 tribes are included so obviously John is not talking about National Israel! I told you previously that the next occasion the name Israel is used [21:12] in the description of the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ.

    Yes the Jews believed Him so much they killed Him.


    An invitation to individuals to become members of the Body of Jesus Christ, not the nation Israel.

    Inclusive is it not!

    Then present the passage of Scripture that includes believe. I said earlier:

    Now is your chance to prove Wlavoord is not a liar. Present the passage of Scripture that includes believing Gentiles or believing Jews or simply present Scripture with the words believer, believers, believing, believe, or belief.

    DHK,
    Your entire understanding of the book of Revelation is based on the fictitious pre-trib rapture of the Church invented by Darby and that is a fact. Therefore most of what you believe Revelation teaches is false!


    All your responses to me for years have managed to include some snide attempt to insult me. I told you months ago that you are not sufficiently versed in Scripture to insult me. If you were you would discard the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture or would be able to defend it by Scripture, which neither you nor anyone else has been able to do. Furthermore you are not sufficiently mature as a person to insult me!
     
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What is false? The Tribulation starts in chapter 6 and goes to chapter 19 of the Book of Revelation, and I have previously stated that. It starts with the first horse of chapter six which is the entrance of the antichrist coming with a bow but no arrows. He comes with a false peace. It ends in chapter 19 when Christ comes again in all his glory with the armies of heaven defeating the enemies of Israel and establishing His Millennial Kingdom.
    I don't have a clue what you are referring to.
    John wrote in 98 A.D. after Jesus had ascended, after Jerusalem had been destroyed.
    What Peter states is a comparison. God took a nation unto himself in OT times. They rejected Christ. Now, in these last days (from Pentecost onward) God is calling out a nation unto himself. That is the simple comparison. Israel was in the OT. She also continues as a nation. The Church continues alongside Israel. So do the Gentiles. All three exist together, as Paul states in 1Cor.10:
    1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

    Yes, I have no doubt that you do, and perhaps the Koran, and other literature as well. That is not the point.
    What you said is a complete red herring and nothing relevant to what I said.
    I simply said that the Book of Revelation, as every NT book is, is written to Christians.
    That has nothing to do with your opinion of whether or not the Kingdom was taken from them, etc., etc.
    I simply said that the all the books of the NT including Revelation are written to Christians!
    So why the irrelevant rant?
    Opinions don't count; what does Scripture say?
    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:
    There was no church before Pentecost.
    There is no definition in Rom.1:16, only purpose. The purpose of the gospel is to be the power of God unto salvation.
    The definition of the gospel (the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) is given in 1Cor.15:1-4).
    I talk about Scripture in the context of a book or chapter of a book, and you mention DARBY!! You are confused. Darby is not mentioned in Scripture. Can you give a chapter and verse for that?? :rolleyes:
    But he taught it didn't he? I see you were convicted by the solid information that I gave on Paul and his ministry. Paul was concerned about local churches. God's blessing is upon the local church today.
    Paul started over 100 local churches in three separate missionary journeys.
    He wrote 13 epistles, all to local churches or to pastors of local churches.
    Both statements are true. You need to learn how to read.
    The first statement: The Tribulation is from chapter 6 to 19. In those chapters one doesn't find any believers during the time of the Tribulation.
    The second statement. The word "believe" is found in the book of Revelation.
    You need to read that chapter carefully. He tells us very specifically:

    Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
    5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
    --12,000 from each tribe of the nation of Israel to make up 144,000 in all. God knew what he was doing. If you must know the exact difference the tribe of Dan is missing, presumably being punished for its idolatry; and both half tribes or sons of Joseph are being treated as full tribes--Manasseh and Ephraim. It is still the nation of Israel. You cannot spiritualize this away; it is as physical and literal as one can get.
    No, it is not. It is used to describe Israel, and Israel alone.
    See what nonsense you make. They will believe on him, when he comes.
    They havne't believed on him yet.

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    --But you are making this a past event?? Amazing! Amazingly pitiful.
    Once we are in heaven it won't make any difference. We all will be redeemed.
    Ask those who are in the Lake of Fire that question?
    Are they part of an elect group assigned by the Father before the foundation of the world (exclusive)?
    Or are they "unbelieving" and choose to go there because of their unbelief as Rev.21:8 indicates, "the unbelieving"?

    What you just said is false. I have told you many times I have never read Darby's works. So what you say is simply a false accusation.
    Furthermore what you say about pre-trib being an invention of Darby is also false. You cannot prove it. You have no way of proving it.
    Consider: That statement is based on this premise:
    "No one before Darby ever believed in the pre-trib rapture." Correct?
    That statement is a universal negative, a logical fallacy that can never be proven true. In order for you to prove it true you would have to interview every person that ever lived before Darby to see whether or not any of them believed in a pre-trib rapture. Otherwise you have no proof that Darby came up with the doctrine. You are just spreading wild rumors, false speculation, things that the Apostle Paul told us to stay away from.
    People try to teach you on a regular basis. You refuse to be taught. That is nothing new. Any person that goes out of their way to spiritualize scripture to the extent that the truth of scripture is denied will not be taught. For example when a thousand doesn't mean a thousand anymore (even thought it is mentioned six times in seven verses) something is wrong.
    The Bible was written to be taken literally, not as one of Aesop's fairly tales.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Funny how they continue to insist we brothers must conform to rigid and antiquated definitions. God knows better and.......:godisgood:
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have stated on numerous occasions that the doctrine of pre-trib dispensationalism does not come from the study of Scripture. Scripture teaches that after the Fall GOD dealt with mankind by HIS Grace and through Covenants. That is true and cannot be denied. However, pre-trib dispensationalism is strictly man made doctrine and an individual must be taught that doctrine. DHK states:
    Of course he means that DHK has attempted to "school" me in the doctrines of pre-trib dispensationalism and I refuse to be converted to the false doctrine of pre-trib dispensationalism. GOD is indeed good and I thank HIM daily that I was not exposed to this doctrine until I was sufficiently learned in Scripture to reject it.

    I have posted on this Forum information by dispensational scholar and author Dr. Thomas Ice showing that John Nelson Darby, while convalescing from a "riding accident" at his sisters home, developed the concept of the pre-tribulation removal of the Church apparently based on his new understanding of Isaiah 32. Dr. Ice writes further regarding Darby:

    Ice writes elsewhere:
    WE see in Ice's remarks above the development within pre-tribulation dispensationalism the false concept of the two peoples of GOD, a concept directly in opposition to the teaching of Scripture {Ephesians 2:11-22}.

    Lewis Sperry Chafer founded and served as the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century. Chafer writes:
    Charles C. Ryrie, quoted above, is a Christian writer and theologian who served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. Ryrie writes:
    Now pre-trib dispensationalists generally "lose their cool, become incensed is perhaps more descriptive," when the Darby, Chafer, Ryrie doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church is mentioned. For proof simply go to http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=80260&highlight=Parenthesis+Church

    DHK,

    The 19th Century gave us the the Watchtower Society [Jehovah's Witnesses}, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Church of Latter Day Saints [Mormonism} and Darby's pre-tribulation dispensationalism.

    Your understanding of Scripture is filtered by the false doctrine of pre-trib dispensationalism and that is the reason, pure and simple, why you will never be able to teach me anything. Sadly others ignorant of Scripture will enter the morass of pre-trib dispensationalism just as millions have because of Scofield and his SRB and Darby"s convalescence.
     
    #58 OldRegular, Sep 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2014
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Again, are those of us holding to Pre trib/pre mil teaching heresy in your opinion?

    And jesus NEVER stated that the kingdom was forever taken from isreal, just not to be established at that time, and peter inActs made it really clear that when national isreal accepts jesus a Messiah, all earth shall be blessed, as their King will rule over earth at that time!
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You might attempt to support your statements with Scripture. There are Bibles online if you don't have one!
     
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