something truly frightening learned at VBS

I have seen this personally. I was asked to lead our youth because the current leader was having complications with her pregnancy. I was teaching them for the duration of the school year. None of them had a clue what salvation really was, how one got there, or what it meant to be "saved". Honestly, I wondered if the helpers did, either.

Oh, they knew how to have a great time and go on trips and play games and sing songs. They also knew how to text their friends during meeting times, and how to continue to talk loudly on their cell phones, and how to listen to their MP3 players.

I taught them the flat-out gospel truth from the bible. I had to do it in small bites as they had no biblical background whatsoever. We had several saved by the end of the school year, but then the old leader was back. We have since brought in a youth pastor, after which the old leader promptly left our church .

That's a mighty broad brush there, my friend. While I don't care for all of the stuff pur our by LifeWay, there have been some good in some of it, too. The problem is that they are like any other publishing house (whether they should be or not). Just because LifeWay is part of the SBC does not mean that everything coming out of it is necessarily SBC materials. I am SBC and can honestly say that most SBC materials are good (if somewhat shallow most of the time), but not all of them.

Amen to that! I am so thankful that our pastor is trying to do this very thing... but the majority of our congregation are seniors who are rock solid in their version of "faith"... whether it is right or wrong. We of the younger generations are loving going deeper, but the older folks are not so happy with it.

 

When I was on staff as a youth pastor I was told I had to make things fun to keep the kid's interest. I didn't last long...

 

I heartily Amen! this as well, ReformedBaptist, just as SolaSaint did! But tho I don't have a problem with calling it "Institute of Christian Studies" or whatever else, as you say, I really think that it is simply "doing" church. It is the fulfillment of the 'great commission' and the discipling aspect of God's purpose for His church.

The fact that we have to think of this in terms of starting or trying something that has been largely undone - and giving a name to it - speaks volumes about the serious breach in duties of Christ's church heretofore. And enough with the "dumbing down" that I think is to blame for much of this. The idea that the average sap sitting in the pew isn't competent or can't 'handle' all these deep truths - what hogwash!

I mean no disrespect to our brethren before us whom have done so much to maintain and bring us Christ's church and Christ's truth. I just think it is high time we did something about the lack and quit being afraid to stand on our Baptist Doctrines (IOW Biblical Truths), and un-apologetically teach it, reteach it, mind it and remind it, to any and all who will hear. And if no one will hear, we keep on teaching & preaching. That's being a Church right? What else are we to do during our sojourn here on earth?

Haha! I desire this dream with you brother!

 

Thank you brother. It is encouraging to see other Christians with the same fervor and love for Jesus, their brethren, and the Scriptures.

I am saddened again, however, and my heart is numb with sorrow, yet again, because I recieved an email from a brother in Christ, who truly ought to be a father by now, questioning whether there be followers of Jesus in other religions.

And unless I am misunderstood, this email was illustrated with a diagram of his own hand showing four circles. The center circle with the words, "Kingdom of God" written in it, and three circles drawn overlaping it with the words Christians, Jews, and Muslims written into them.

What is happening my brothers? Are we so removed from the simplicity in Christ and our singular devotion to Him? What am I to do? On the one hand I feel angered by this, on the other greatly saddened to the point of tears.

In one emotion I want to hole myself up in Christ, and then proclaim upon the housetops the everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ. I want to scream, "To the Law and to the Testimony! And if any man speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in him."

Brothers, remember me in your prayers, but more so, remember our brethren throughout our great nation, especially on this day of our Independence, that our people will truly be freed from darkness and ignorance. I know there are a great many Christians who know the truth and love the truth. Many are my dear friends, and we have found each other. Many I see of and hear of through their blogsites and discussion boards like these.

I am no reformer brothers. God will raise up men to that task. But where there was one Luther, there must have been a thousand saints fervant in Spirit, full of faith and good works, and mighty in the Scriptures. Where there are 10 Stephens testifying of God's great and awesome works, there are 10,000 Jadons' building up the walls of Jerusalem. Whatever we may be brothers, may it never be that we are found not so doing when He shall come.

Lord, strengthen our hands to the task.

 

What a scary commentary on our church society when discipleship is seen as a threat to ministry. Wow!

 

Hello nodak

Thank you for sharing your situation. This is truly a big problem, but I am not surprised to see it, this bad.

Back in 1992, a young man who had been a member of my Church before I had arrived, came to my office, to discuss some personal problems he had been having, and during our conversation, the subject of his sin came up, and he responded, “I have never sinned”.....

Like you, I was shocked and I explained to him, that it was impossible for him to truly be born again, without having confessed and forsaken his sin.......
1 John 1:10
“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

The truth, had no effect on him at all and he left, as unsaved as he was when he came in;
But things got worse.
--------------------------------------------------
Soon after that, was our monthly business meeting(he was not in attendance), and during that meeting, I explained to the Church about what I had learned about this man’s unregenerated state and called for a motion to have his name removed from our
Church rolls.

To say the least, it didn’t happen.
All they could talk about was “love” & “support” & “being judgmental” etc.

Well I explained, that I was just the pastor and only had one vote, therefore I would not be able to push this through;
But I warned them, of the terrible mistake that they were making.
And they made it anyway.
--------------------------------------------------
Most Churches(and pastors) are more concerned with nickels and noses, than they are about people’s souls:
(This has to be the case, or this problem would not be as widespread as it is.)

 

I have read a number of books on antagonists in the church and conflict management. Most all of them mention that the number of pastors forcibly terminated is about 25%. That is a huge epidemic. I t appears that very little is being done about it.

 

Many of my friends from college have gone to Biola and they were already doing evangelism and making disciples before they went. We learned it through parachurch organizations.

 

Anyone who is making disciples should be teaching the people to share their faith. If they are not then they are not doing as Jesus did with His disciples.

 

This really is a sad thread to read.

How about adding to the mix the very very high percentage of Baptists who are card carrying, faithfull, sold out to the group members of Freemasonry.

I find it utterly amazing that one can be involved in Masonry while being a born of the Spirit child of God.

 

Nodak,

I think ReformedBaptist is correct: the problem is epidemic.

My take (being an SBC guy and a graduate of an SBC seminary) is the following:

1. The SBC has been program-driven instead of gospel-driven for so many years that people have forgotten the gospel.

SBC-types have been touting evangelism program after evangelism program and the problem is that programs don't do anything except "tickle" the people performing the program. Many SBC churches have forgotten (if they new it in the first place) that the goal of the Great Commission is to "make disciples," not make converts.

Many SBC churches view having someone walk and aisle and get baptized as the end of the battle when it is really the beginning. True, doctrinal, and biblical discipleship rarely takes place. Persons are more concerned with "programs" doing the job and not individual discipleship. What is more, programs are preached, not biblical, systematic theology.

2. Baptists (the SBC in particular) have largely abandoned their reformed roots.

English Particular Baptists and American Regular Baptists were quite prominent in the Baptist movement--a history largely forgotten and obscured by some engaging in dishonest academic vandalism.

This is not to say that Reformed Baptists and other Reformed denominations are the same. But, early Baptists were, by-in-large, reformed in their theology.

One of the benefits of reformed theology is that, generally speaking, reformed theology is heavy on doctrine, systematic theology, and biblical theology. Sadly, many non-reformed types have abandoned serious systematic and biblical theology.

James Montgomery Boice and Philip Graham Ryken wrote a book arguing (persuasively, I might add) that the downfall of the evangelical church can easily be traced to the abandonment of the Doctrines of Grace.

3. Many preachers do not preach expositionally.

Sure, many think they do, but they do not. The best definition of expositional (or expository) preaching is this: Making the main point of the passage the main point of the sermon (this is Mark Dever's definition).

How many messages/sermons have you heard on the Great Commission have you heard that insists on "go?" Go, in the Greek, is not a verb. The main verb, and therefore the main point of the passage, is "make disciples." This is but one example.

Another example is Joseph fleeing Potiphar's wife. How many "moralistic" sermons have we heard on this passage? Legion. But the main point of the passage is that God is sovereign and even when you do the right thing you still wind up in jail--to serve God's greater plan and purpose.

4. People have forgotten that God's major, over-arching goal is not us but Himself.

There's a church sign close to my neighborhood (an SBC church, I might add) that says "God has a wonderful plan for your life." This demonstrates the flawed man-centered, deficient, and possibly false gospel that many churches sell.

A better way to write the above sign would be: "God has a wonderful plan for His glory and it involves your life."

But, the loss of reformed theology contributes to the man-centered theology as well.

5. The prevalence of the health and wealth gospel, which is a false gospel.

This is also due to man-centered-ness. God does not exist for our happiness, but for His glory. Many of the health and wealth preachers are selling idolatry in christian-esque packaging. But, the end of that idolatry is still hell.

6. The seeker movement

Again, a man-centered idea which downplays doctrine and biblical theology, while also downplaying the absolute need for regenerate church membership and restorative church discipline.

These are but 6 challenges I see. Certainly there are more...but it is late and I'm sure the above 6 challenges will bring much discussion.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

What's happening at Nodak's church is the work of the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with the supposed lack of tulips growing between the church benches. You make some good points bit it's too bad you clothed it all in Calvinism as being answer to all our problems.

 

I'm sorry you greatly misunderstood me. Calvinism is not the answer. I was merely pointing out that many Calvinistic-types, generally speaking, have much more of an interest in systematic theology, biblical theology, and expository preaching.

I know several churches and pastors that are not Calvinistic that are into systematic theology, biblical theology, and expository preaching and those churches do a great work.

On the other hand, all of the Calvinistic churches I know of (and they are in the minority of churches in my area) do a phenomenal job in these areas.

What I would look for in a church are these things:

1. Expository Preaching
2. Biblical Theology
3. A proper understanding of the Gospel
4. A proper understanding of Conversion
5. A proper understanding of Evangelism
6. Church membership that matters
7. Biblical, restorative church discipline
8. A culture of Discipleship
9. Biblical leadership

These are "the 9 marks" of a health church. (See here for more information).

Generally speaking (again generally speaking) the Calvinistic churches and pastors seem to care more about these 9 marks. Many anti-Calvinist churches eschew these things in favor of programs and superficial relationships within the church. But, to be sure, there are some less-than-Calvinistic churches that subscribe to the 9 marks and they do a great job.

So, Calvinism is not the cure. In fact, the wrong kind of Calvinism would make for similar problems.

The Archangel

 

I've read Nine Marks and it's a good book. I'm just not fully convinced about Calvinism. The package it's wrapped in is just a little to neat and simple in my opinion.

 

I think, though, Mark (Dever) would say that the outworking of the 9 Marks in church setting--especially a church setting that is unaccustomed to the matter of the 9 Marks--might not be neat and simple.

Mark always encourages teaching and patience.

If you liked Nine Marks, I would greatly recommend The Deliberate Church.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Thank God I'm Regular Baptist ...lol. Dr. Bob, I am seeing (in the NE anyway) that allot of people coming into the church are originally from the Catholics. Can that be a reason they are difficient in doctrine?

 

I've also read The Deliberate Church. Good book. Helps when one has to deal with the bigger is better mentality that is still prevalent in the church today.

 

VERY true! I much prefer smaller sized churches. I've been part of so-called "mega churches" and I find (generally) that they provide way too many people the opportunity to get lost in the shuffle. Generally, superficiality reigns in mega-churches.

I greatly prefer the close, intimate connections in smaller churches. There is far greater opportunity to rejoice with those rejoicing and sorrow with those sorrowing.

Blessings,

The Archangel