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Featured Son of God vs God, the Son

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Mar 18, 2017.

  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    We know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
    He also is God the Son.

    As the Son of God - could mean that he is not God, -- 47 times in the Bible - all but one is in the NT
    God, the Son erases that possibility -

    Does it make a difference how we refer to Christ?

    Open for discussion
     
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  2. PastorGreg

    PastorGreg Member
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    I am currently a prison chaplain and there is a lot of modalistic (is that a word?) influence on the inmates, so I am more careful to use "God the Son" often. Nothing wrong with "Son of God," as it is obviously entirely Biblical.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If we take the Jewish understanding of the terminilogy, both terms would be the equivalent of calling Him God, and either one would have gotten Him up on the Cross!

    The jews of that time did not see son of God as gentiles/pagans would, as a thor/hercules, but as a claim to being God!

    Another question, would not the term God the Son refer to JUST the time before Incarnation, when He was just God, not Jesus, as His humanity happened at time of His birth? So God the Son before, Son of God when now God/Man?
     
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  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Where can God the Son be found anywhere in the original languages of the Word of God?
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I was about to comment that I believe it doesn’t matter as they are identical terms, but after some thought (not much, it’s early) I don’t think that’s right.

    In Scripture Jesus is called the “Son of God”, the “Son”, and the “Son of Man”. The usage of these terms point to Jesus’ divinity but also to a fuller (for lack of a better term) idea of God in either the Father or the Godhead. “God, the Son” points to Christ but not the Father.

    Jesus is God’s revelation of Himself to mankind (He is God as mankind can come to know God). I believe that this is the purpose of John’s use of λόγος. I see this expressed in the terms mentioned, with the possible exception of “God, the Son”.
     
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  6. Happy

    Happy Well-Known Member
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    "son" ~ what is a "son" naturally (from the earth)?
    ~ An alive babe which comes forth from a woman's womb.
    ~ An alive babe which was from a natural man's seed.
    ~ An alive babe who's body was "formed" by God.
    ~ An alive babe whom God "imparts" a living soul. (breath of life).
    The "son" is called; begat by the dad (his seed).
    The "son" is called; birthed (revealed/manifested) from the womb of a woman.

    ie "birthed / born" = something alive coming forth from something alive.

    "Son" OF God. ~
    ~ something alive coming forth out from God. (beget of God)
    ~~ What does proceed mean?
    ~~ Is one place and goes to another place.
    ~~
    John.8
    1. [42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    ~~ What does "out from" mean?
    ~~ Was "IN" one place, then came "OUT" from that place.

    John.16
    1. [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
    The "WORD OF GOD" ~
    The Word of God was IN God, proceeded FORTH, and came OUT from God.

    The Word of God ~ IS God
    ~~
    John.1
    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    IN the beginning Gods Word proceeded forth out of His mouth, and SPOKE, and the WORLD was revealed (manifested).

    Gen 1
    [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Numerous times God's Word came forth out of His mouth, and things were created and made.
    Men heard, men had visions, men were given knowledge, wisdom, understanding according to God.

    Men were "given promises".

    Lev.26
    1. [12] And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. ( ie ~ new creatures, a peculiar people, NOT carnal).
    Deut.26
    1. [18] And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;
    4,000 years later ~ God's Word came forth out of His mouth...
    AND ~ walked among men.

    John.8
    1. [12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
    Gal 6

    [15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    [16] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    So ~ after 4,000 years of Gods Word coming forth out of His mouth and a history of mankind is established..... THEN WHAT?

    Gods "ALIVE" Word comes forth out from God ~ (ie born of God) ~ and enters a chosen virgin woman's womb.

    "Manifested" (revealed/ born out of the woman's womb, according to the LAW of Nature) ~ revealed, (manifested) in the "LIKENESS" "AS" an earthly man....and to be called the "Son" of God, JESUS, Lord, "Son of man", (and many other things).

    What "Son of man" is JESUS?
    Was JESUS "born" of "any" earthly mans seed? No.
    Did JESUS "take upon Himself" an earthly man's seed? Yes.
    What does that mean?

    And "earthly" mans seed, is a natural (earthly) mans "way" to reproduce, his "OWN" like KIND of thing.
    An "earthly" mans seed that "reproduces" its SAME KIND of thing, fulfills a Law of Nature, fulfills Mans LAW to determine Parentage and Mans LAW of Heritage and Legality of Relationship and Heir-ship.

    When JESUS took upon Himself, to be born of a virgin Jewish Woman ~ JESUS fulfilled the LAW of Man~KIND. He became LAWFULLY ~ The Son of Abraham ~ Isaac ~ Jacob ~ etc.
    Being (revealed) coming forth from a JEWISH Woman's womb ~ He fulfilled the LAW of the JEWS ~ which requires a "natural born" Jew to have a "natural" Jewish mother.

    Heb.2
    1. [16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    Phil 2
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    THAT ^ IS JESUS, as a man. <--> without reputation, as a servant, humble, in the Likeness as a "natural" man.

    What "reputation" was JESUS "without" ?
    ~ All knowledge, power, wisdom, authority.

    And DO WE ever have His "reputation" revealed? Yes.
    ~ When?
    ~ Every time Scripture "reveals" JESUS is the CHRIST.
    ~ Every time Scripture "reveals" CHRIST "IS" the "ALL" knowing, power, wisdom, authority of God.

    Men of today, have the history and without much "thought" call Jesus the Christ, as if that information was always known and accepted. It wasn't. Jesus IS the Son of God, as God declared He would be called upon this earth, when He was revealed upon this earth, AS a man, walking among men.
    JESUS, is the Son of man ~ (Abraham, Jacob, Isaac ---> and forward)
    CHRIST, is God among men ~ (and WHY the Jews kept asking, IF He was the Christ).

    Heb.1
    1. [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
    Heb.10
    1. [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    Isa 45

    [23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Isa 55

    [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Luke.1
    1. [35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    John.19
    1. [28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
    Heb 10

    [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    JESUS ~ is the Son of God, the Son of Man.
    CHRIST ~ is God. God is everlasting, without parents.

    :)








     
  7. The Parson

    The Parson Member
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    Isn't this subject actually all summed up in Matthew one?

    Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
     
  8. Happy

    Happy Well-Known Member
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    That reveals the knowledge. But does not summarize the steps of how or why. :)
     
  9. The Parson

    The Parson Member
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    I would probably at this point ask you to explain the Godhead to where anyone could actually understand such a mystery. That would be dabbling into the mind of God Himself wouldn't it, or defining Gods nature using man's terms? Remember Paul's sermon on Mar's Hill?

    Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
     
  10. Happy

    Happy Well-Known Member
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    The mystery is:

    Eph 5
    [30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    Paul gave you "his understanding".

    Eph 3
    [2] If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
    [3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    The key is;
    ...the mystery is revealed.
    ...men can tell you the understanding, in their words.
    ...however Gods understanding comes From God to an individual.

    Matt.16
    1. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    And the "understanding from God" is given to those who believe, seek and ask.

    Mark.4
    1. [11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
    1Chr.22
    [12] Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding,
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I'm not aware of anywhere that the Lord Jesus is called 'God the Son,' but the evidence is found all through the Bible:

    The first text is a reference to God the father or to God generally; the second is a reference to Christ.

    1. Psalm 90:2. 'From everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.'
    Micah 5:2. 'Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.'

    2. Psalm 93:2. 'Thy throne is established of old; thou art from everlasting.'
    Heb. 1:8. 'Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.'

    3. Isaiah 44:6. 'I am the first and the last; and beside me there is no God.'
    Rev, 22:13. "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.'

    4. Jer. 23:24. 'Do I not fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.'
    Eph. 4:10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens that he might fill all things.'

    5. Deut. 31:8. 'The Lord, he it is that doth go before thee- He will be with thee; he will not fail thee.'
    Matt. 28:20. "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

    6. Mal. 3:6. "I am the LORD, I change not."
    Heb. 13:8. 'Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.'

    7. Job 11:7. "Canst thou by searching find out God?"
    Matt. 11:27. 'No man knoweth the Son, but the Father.'

    8. Rom. 11:33. 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! His ways past finding out.'
    Eph. 3:8. 'The unsearchable riches of Christ.'

    9. Prov. 16:4. 'The Lord has made all things for himself.'
    Col. 1:16. 'All things were created by him and for him.'

    10. Deut. 32:4. 'A God of truth and without iniquity.'
    John 14:6. 'I am....the truth.' Heb. 4:15. '...Without sin.'

    11. 1 Tim. 6:15. 'The King of kings and Lord of lords.'
    Rev. 19:16. 'King of kings and Lord of Lords.'

    12. Psalm 145:13. 'Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.'
    Dan. 7:14. 'His dominion is an everlasting dominion.....and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed,'

    13. Isaiah 40:10. Behold, the LORD God will come with a strong hand- His reward is with him.'
    Rev. 22:12. "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me.....'

    14. Psalm 62:12. 'Thou renderest to every man according to his work.'
    Rev. 22:12. '....To give to every man according to his work.'

    15. Jer. 17:7. 'Blessed is the man who trusteth in the Lord and whose hope the Lord is.'
    Psalm 2:12. 'Blessed are they who put their hope in him.' Col. 1:27. 'Christ in you, the hope of glory.'

    Plenty more of these if you look for them.
     
  12. Happy

    Happy Well-Known Member
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    There is no "quote" of "God the Son", because if you examine Scripture, ORDER / WAY of God is paramount.

    Hebrews believed in God, period.
    Jews believe in God, period.

    When Jesus arrived, "as a servant of God, a prophet, teacher, preacher", the Jews saw Him as just another street preacher, until He amassed a following, and said and did things that astounded even the Jewish religious leaders. Then Jesus became a threat "to them".

    The significant thing to the Jews, was Jesus claiming and being called the Son of God.
    In Jewish laws the "son" had the standing "equal" with his father, in word, speech and action.

    And why, when Jesus claimed to be ONE with God, and the Son of God, they wanted to kill him for making Himself "equal" with God and making Himself "God".

    John 10:
    [30] I and my Father are one.
    [31] Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    [32] Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    [33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    [36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    John.19

    1. [7] The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
    God is revealed first.
    God dictates a man is the head of the family, called Father.
    Moses dictates God is the Father of all men.
    God uses His Word to speak, and create, and communicate.
    God uses His Power to effect creation and His Will.

    Later it is revealed God "named" His Word ~ Jesus ~ and reveals His Word to mankind, in the likeness as a man, and proclaims His Word would come to this World, as a Son to Him (God), to effect His Will be carried out AS God had proclaimed, "He" would do what "He" claimed "He" would.

    Later it is revealed God "named" His Power ~ Christ ~ and reveals His Power to mankind, in the likeness as a man.

    It is the order, the way, as God promised.

    Ezek.24
    1. [14] I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
    Ezek.36
    1. [36] Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
    John.14
    1. [14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    Jews await for the promise of God to be fulfilled.
    Gentiles (for the most part) accept God has already fulfilled many promises.

    Jews for the most part, do not accept Jesus as the Son of God, ie God Himself.
    Believing Gentiles are NOT all in agreement.
    ....some trust and believe; The Father, Son and Holy Spirit IS thee Lord God Almighty, ONE God.
    ....some believe; Jesus is the Son, but is not God....because they can ONLY apply carnal logic to their
    ..............thinking, that a son can not be a father.

    The mystery is; It all hinges on Gods Understanding. (not mans carnal mind)
    ....... Jesus IS the Lord, Yahweh IS Father God, and Christ is the Spirit Power.
    ....... Introduced separately, yet ONE Lord God Almighty.

    And as Moses proclaimed and taught; He the LORD is mankind's Father. :)

    Deut 32
    [6] Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

    As the LORD proclaimed He ( ONE ) (I), is the First, with the Last.

    Isa 41
    [4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

    As the LORD clarifies He ( ONE ) (I), is the First and is the Last.

    Isa 45
    [12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.



     
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  13. The Parson

    The Parson Member
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    You may misunderstand what I was saying... You gave the description of Who He Is, but the explanation of how He is God yet One of the Three still escapes our understanding. Even with scriptural references.

    1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    So by faith, I know who He is and that He is God, because the eye of faith reveals who He is by the scriptures through the Holy Spirit, but understanding how it's possible for One to also be Three would escape the mind of man and isn't revealed in the scriptures because it defies comprehension. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Here's another query for you. God is the Son of God and one with God, so think about the awesome power of God the Father when he withholds information from the Son, The Holy Spirit, and the angels. Can you explain how that's possible?

    Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
     
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Gal 4:4 NKJV But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[fn] of a woman, born under the law,

    Hebrews 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake ( the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, 1:14) in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken (same) unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Heir: a person who inherits or has a right of inheritance in the property of another

    he hath by inheritance obtained

    Did he send forth, God the Son or the Son of the living God, as the heir of God?
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus the man did not always exist, but God the Son always had, so he was called God the Son in OT, and after Incarnation, Jesus as both God/man was now Son of God...
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Word is a person, is God, but not same as God the father, correct?
     
  17. Happy

    Happy Well-Known Member
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    Inheritance ~ for Abraham ( and certain ones of his descendants ) is Land.

    Certain descendants of Abraham ~ are all men (Hebrew, Jews, Gentiles) WHO have the Seed of God.
    OF Abraham's "stock" (sperm seed) descendants, some shall have Gods Seed, some will not.
    OF those NOT of Abraham's "stock" descendants, they BECOME Abraham's (descendants), IF and WHEN and BECAUSE they have the Seed of God. Thereafter, that man, BECOMES a "son of Abraham". ie a "son of man".
    And Abraham becomes his "earthly father", fulfilling Gods promise to Abraham, that he would be a father of many nations. ie, men in nations throughout the world.

    When JESUS was on earth, "Son of man", Abraham was "his father" on earth.....BECAUSE Jesus took upon himself the seed of Abraham, ie, Jesus making himself a Son of Abraham. Just as every man WHO has the Seed of God, also takes upon himself the seed of Abraham, and is a child of Abraham.

    WHY is that important? Because every man WHO is a son of Abraham, by stock, who has the Seed of God; and every man WHO is a son of Abraham, by promise, who has the Seed of God; IS thereafter entitled to the LAND promised to Abraham.

    WHY did Jesus NEED to be included in a LAND inheritance?
    BECAUSE A KINGDOM, does not exist without entitlement to LAND.
    JESUS was lawfully preparing His right to be entitled to LAND on earth, for His Kingdom, and FOR the everlasting THRONE that was prepared WHEN kind David sat on the THRONE <--- THAT shall be lawfully JESUS' THRONE on earth.

    The Seed of God, IS CHRIST. That Seed coming into a man, IS the Seed, that is planted in a man, WHEN the man receives the Holy Spirit. That Seed, is what CAUSES, a man to become "born again".

    God's INHERITANCE "IS" every man of Christ Jesus' Kingdom.
    IOW ~ God's inheritance "IS" every man who has the HOLY SPIRIT. ie saved and born again.
     
  18. anerlogios

    anerlogios Member
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    I agree. The phrase "God the Son" (Θεός ὁ υἱός) is not found anywhere in the Greek testament.
     
  19. Happy

    Happy Well-Known Member
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Neither is the term Trinity!
     
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