1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

SOULS DIE

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by wopik, Mar 10, 2006.

  1. wopik

    wopik New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Matt 10:28


    Other humans can kill us; They can kill the body, but they can not take our life (psuche, soul, life) away from us PERMANENTLY.


    Jesus can: Fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul (psuche, soul, life) in hell.
     
  2. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    0
    The bible never makes the separation that you have. It never says that it is just the body that is sleeping. This is what you choose to believe, not what the bible says anywhere. It would be nonsense to refer to the dead body as sleeping. The body immediately begins decaying and rotting in the ground after death. If anything should be referred to as dead, it should be the body, that we will never have again. When we die, this body truly dies, for it will never exist again. It will be replaced with our new glorified bodies.

    It is the soul which is sleeping. This is why the bible says that the dead have no thoughts, they do not even worship or praise God. They have no idea of anything that goes on anymore. They also have no love, and no memory.

    If the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable then you are making the word of God contradict itself, and you are contradicting your own argument. The parable is clearly stating that both the wicked, and the saved are conscious after death. And yet you quote a scripture that says only he that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son hath not life. This scripture directly contradicts what you are teaching. At the same time, why would God continually promise the saved the reward of eternal life, when the wicked also have eternal life, just not a good one.

    It is as I said earlier, your refusal to accept the truth of this matter, has distorted your understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you not understand the Christ suffered the penalty of sin on our behalf? It is because He has paved the road before us, that we are able now to follow Him. This we do by faith in Him, His grace, His power, and His Holy Spirit. If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, then you my friend are doomed, for Christ did not burn in hell forever. Even if this was the penalty for sin, then Christ would have to burn in hell forever. This task could never be accomplished seeing that it would take all of eternity, which would still leave you doomed. I ask you, how do you explain how Christ has paid the penalty for your sins, if you believe the penalty is eternal torment?

    You cannot rightly understand the gospel of Jesus Christ because you have chosen to believe the lie of the devil, “ you shall not surely die”. No sir, you most certainly will die. You are a sinner, and you must die, for the soul that sinneth, it shall die. You will either choose to die now in Christ, or you will die later in the lake of fire, the second death, which is final. By faith, you can be in Christ on the cross when He died, thereby being justified. Likewise, by faith you may allow Christ to be in you, the hope of glory, through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit, thereby being sanctified. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ which your false doctrine of the immortality of the soul destroys. The father of your lie knows this very well. It is the very reason that he invented this lie.


    Rom 6:1-16 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    6 Knowing this, hat our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


    Gal 2:20 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Christ died the second death for all of humanity, that all of humanity might have life through Him. Those who choose to pick up their cross and follow Christ now, will never die the second death. All who will follow Christ must pick up the cross and follow in His footsteps.


    Matt 10:38-39 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


    Matt 16:24-26 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
    26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


    Mark 8:34-36 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
    36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?


    Mark 10:21-22 21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
    22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.


    Luke 9:22-25 22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
    23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
    24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
    25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?


    Luke 14:27 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.


    1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
    18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


    Gal 6:14-15 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
    15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


    Phil 2:5-8 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    The cross is a symbol of death my friend. The very thing that you say does not exist. If there really was no death, then much of the written word would make no sense at all. God has given us all the freedom to choose. The choice is simple, will you die now in Christ, or will you die the second death later. Or will you just choose to ignore this choice, and believe the lie of Satan, that “ you shall not surely die”?

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  3. wopik

    wopik New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Acts KJV
    27:37
    And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.


    Holman Christian Standard Bible:

    In all there were 276 of us on the ship.


    Acts English Standard Version
    27:37
    (We were in all 276 persons in the ship.)
     
  4. wopik

    wopik New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to the story, The rich man died - slept [eyes closed] -- Luke 16:22.

    The next time we read about the rich man, his eyes are OPEN - "he lift up his eyes" (Lk 16:33) - in his grave [hell, hades].


    The rich man is resurrected and sees Abraham and Lazarus - immortal - in the Kingdom of God, and he himself still mortal and ready to be thrown into the Lake of Fire - to be destroyed for all eternity.

    This is the "great gulf" that exists between the rich man and Abraham, Lazarus (Lk 16:26). The latter two are immortal and in the Kingdom. But the rich man is still mortal, and will soon be burned up in the Lake of Fire -- like so much fat or chaff (Ps. 37:20 / Matt 3:12).


    The rich man "lift up his EYES... and SEES Abraham. . ."
    even as Jesus warned the Pharisees, "You shall SEE Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom, and you yourselves cast out" ( Luke 13:28).
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    1
    Lazarus is not in heaven in that story. If he were, he would not be in Abraham's bosom, he would be with Jesus.
     
  6. wopik

    wopik New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    2Corinthians KJV
    12:15


    And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you (psuche, souls); though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.
     
  7. JFox1

    JFox1 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Rich Man and Lazarus did not resurrect yet. He lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham because you do have all of your faculties in the afterlife.

    Then he said, I pray thee, therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them; left they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham, but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he saith unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:27-31 KJV.

    If Abraham, the Rich Man, and Lazarus had already resurrected, this passage would make no sense. The Rich Man is asking that Lazarus return from the dead and warn his brothers. This would make no sense if the resurrection of the dead already happened.
     
  8. wopik

    wopik New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did not say Lazarus was in Heaven. The meek shall inherit the EARTH.


    --------------------------------------------


    There is no doubt as to how the Bible uses the word "bosom".

    In Isaiah 40:11, we find God will care for His people as a shepherd does his sheep, carrying them "in His bosom".

    Jesus was "in the bosom" of the Father (Jn. 1:18), enjoying the Father's blessings and close relationship.

    Moses carried the children of Israel in his bosom (Num. 11:12). To be in one's bosom is to have that one's love and protection, and share his blessings and inheritance.

    Lazarus being carried away by the angels (Matt. 25:31) into Abraham's bosom, means he was carried - not up to Heaven - but into the status of a son and heir of Abraham (Gal. 3:29).
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    1
    Exactly, JFox.

    Too many want to explain away the true torment of hell.

    One can see; the rich man lifted up his eyes and saw Lazarus
    One can hear; he had a conversation with Abraham
    One can feel: he was tormented in these flames
    One has memories: he wanted Lazarus to go warn his brothers of that awful place.
    One has taste: he wanted to taste one drop of water

    Even though the rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham afar off, I do not believe that they could see him. Hell is a place of outer darkness, so I do not believe he would be visible to their eyes.
     
  10. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Its obvious that parable is not to be taken literally.
     
  11. wopik

    wopik New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not what the Word of God says.

    Speaking of the dead, David was inspired to write: "His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalm 146:4).


    Dead people know nothing (Eccl 9:5); their thoughts perish (Ps. 146:4).


    For the resurrected Rich Man, who had been dead for thousands of years, his 5 brothers were still at home living with their father. Proof, that THE DEAD know nothing in the grave. They are not aware of the passing of time.

    David's inspired word from God is correct: the dead know nothing.


    For the dead, The next moment is the resurrection.
     
  12. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus told the story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man to illustrate a point. Some believe Jesus meant the parable as a satire of the Pharisees' belief that they were in a privileged position with God. It was also a statement about their love of privilege and wealth. Luke's account implies the Pharisees loved the rich and riches, even though they were more likely to be of the tradesman class. When Jesus told his listeners that they could not serve both God and Mammon (Luke 16:13-14), the Pharisees scoffed. Luke says: "The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus" (verse 14).

    Luke's Gospel often portrays the rich in an uncomplimentary way and the poor as failing to find justice. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is really about justice rather than the nature of the afterlife. The story clearly implies that God's people do not necessarily have it easy in this life nor do they always get justice in this life.

    The symbolism used in the story, such as the great gulf between the rich man and God and "Abraham's bosom," deals with the question of who are the true people of God and who aren't. The issue being that the unrepentant wicked will be lost and separated from God (by a "great chasm") while the righteous will enjoy a close, "bosom-buddy" relationship with God, to use modern terms.

    "Abraham's bosom" was a metaphor used by Jews who lived in the time of Jesus to stand for the kingdom of God, where the righteous would be. The wicked and spiritually ignorant would be consigned to the place of torment and separation from God. Naturally, the Pharisees thought that Pharisees would be in "Abraham's bosom" and others less righteous and hated enemies such as the Samaritans would be among the lost. We can surmise that Jesus told the story to shock the Pharisees into rethinking their view about their relationship with God (see verse 15).

    The details of the story include metaphors, and these are not to be taken literally. Lazarus would not be literally sitting in "Abraham's bosom," as the King James translates the phrase. The rich man would not talking if he was in the throes of an excruciating agony while burning in a fire and suffocating in the smoke. So we shouldn't take all the details of the parable, such as bosom, chasm and fire, in a literal sense.
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    1
    1. David did not say 'The dead know nothing' That was Solomon.

    2. How do you figure the rich man had been dead for thousands of years? The Bible makes no mention of a period of time passing.

    3. The rich man lifted his eyes in hell, in torment and could not leave there. If that was his resurrection (the resurrection of the wicked as told in Revelation), he would have been brought out to stand before the Great White Throne for judgment. He was not, so it was not the resurrection as you surmise.

    4. What church do you attend?
     
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Im so glad that I wasnt tainted by any of these other religions before becoming a Christian and I was taught right off the bat that the dead are asleep awaiting the resurrection of Christ.

    I guess that when people have been taught this idea that the dead are up there in heaven, its difficult to admit you are wrong, no matter if there arent any Bible verses at all to support the idea that the dead can talk to you and are up there in heaven.

    Its absurd to think that Jesus is coming to resurrect the dead at the second coming and yet still believe they are up there in heaven now.

    When I was growing up a Catholic I had left home at age 14 so fortunately, I wasnt colored by any of it, I didnt even understand religion at all back then.

    My mother was a Catholic Nun and ALSO an Automatic Writer for Seances. So I realize there is a connection between Catholicism and Spiritualism. Thats why they believe you can pray to the Virgin Mary, Hello??? [​IMG]

    Claudia
     
  15. wopik

    wopik New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Rich Man didn't ask for a bucket of water, Just a drop to cool his tongue.

    He was frightened to death of his impending Death for all eternity in gehenna fire.
     
  16. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    she used to tell me all these stories about the wind blowing through the house when they had these seances and about people getting clawed by demons and so on and so forth.

    Why do you think these Catholic Priests are always doing their "Exorcisms" to try to rid people of demonic spirits?
     
  17. wopik

    wopik New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    HELL, the GRAVE. Hades, Grave,

    ....not hell, gehenna fire.


    The Rich Man opened his eyes in hell (hades).


    Peter said: "He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption" (Acts 2:31).

    Jesus, too, died and was buried. And in "hell" - the grave - He too lifted up His eyes — when He was resurrected!
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    1
    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    What do you do with that verse if the dead in Christ are not in heaven right now?

    Twist it to mean something it does not?
     
  19. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Its also absolutely absurd if you'll just stop and think about it, to actually believe the dead are either up in heaven or down in hell right now, since the Bible CLEARLY tells us that nobody has yet gotten their reward or punishment.

    2Pt:3:7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    Rv:22:12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    What do you think anyway, that God sends people to hell for thousands of years and then some day after that He judges them? That makes no sense at all.

    Then when Jesus comes to get His sleeping saints in the grave they are already up in heaven?

    Its like people have had these ideas just drummed into them all their lives and they cannot see.
     
  20. JFox1

    JFox1 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    0
    StandingfirminChrist,

    These characters have been twisting the word of God all along. I'm getting disgusted. They are convinced that they are so right and everyone else is so wrong. One even implied I believe the lie of the devil and will share his fate because I don't believe in soul sleep. They are treading on very dangerous ground: Judge not, that we be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged, and what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matthew 7:1 KJV.
     
Loading...