OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Nope!Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Oldregular;
Looks like you have your view and I have mine. Not the first time you ever had anyone disagree with your view is it?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
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Sovereign in Salvation
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I can't argue with that.
Wes Outwest
New Member
The us here is Paul talking about the Apostles as follows:
verse 5, who was "with Christ"? The Apostles,
Who was raised up to "heavenly places"? The Apostles who have written of their experiences, and see in John 17, Jesus Prayer to the father, in verses 6 though 20 Jesus is specifically speaking OF the Apostles. Likewise, the Heavenly places were revealed to Paul "whether in the body or out of the body" he was raise into heaven where the things of heaven were revealed to him, as were to John and Peter, and I believe the rest of the Apostles either through visions or through "out of body spiritual experiences".
Then Paul tells the Ephesians who did not "see" or "walk with", and were not "with" Jesus, and who were not "taught by God", that it is while God is in a state of Grace toward mankind, that we are saved through faith, and that not by anything in us, Salvation is a gift of God, and not a reward for our works, so no man can boast about being saved by any means except BY GOD through our FAITH in Him.
It is you who is incorrectly interpreting Eph 2:8&9. So open your eyes, open your heart to God let Him reveal the truth to you. Question what you read, don't accept everything "LITERALLY". Understand grace, it has no power to save, it is an attribute of the one possessing and exhibiting it to others. It is the One who is now exhibiting HIS grace to us all, who actually does the saving, and he only saves those from among us who have faith in Him. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD!
Ray Berrian
New Member
Old Regular,
Romans 8:35-19 deals with the eternal security and comfort coming from God Himself. This security is only for those who are truly regenerated and sealed by the Holy Spirit and cleansed in His blood.
Ephesians chapter 1:4-8 is dealing with those vast and teaming millions of souls in all centuries who will be saved. Some are already saved and others will be saved in the future.
The word, ‘chosen’ is in the aorist middle indicative tense and means that at one time He elected through Himself with the affects still being carried out until the end of time. This, however, does not speak of Jesus autocratically selecting some never dying souls for Hell and the remnant for Heaven.
God does not cram down the throat of sinners His salvation; it is offered as His gift to them. In Acts 2:38 the gift was offered, but it first required repentance. God speaking through Luke said then ‘. . . ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’ Of course water baptism followed the new convert’s faith in Christ. Gifts at times have been rejected as duly noted in John 3:18 and Acts 7:51 and Leviticus 26:19. There are more examples but this will catch your attention.
Regards,
Ray
Romans 8:35-19 deals with the eternal security and comfort coming from God Himself. This security is only for those who are truly regenerated and sealed by the Holy Spirit and cleansed in His blood.
Ephesians chapter 1:4-8 is dealing with those vast and teaming millions of souls in all centuries who will be saved. Some are already saved and others will be saved in the future.
The word, ‘chosen’ is in the aorist middle indicative tense and means that at one time He elected through Himself with the affects still being carried out until the end of time. This, however, does not speak of Jesus autocratically selecting some never dying souls for Hell and the remnant for Heaven.
God does not cram down the throat of sinners His salvation; it is offered as His gift to them. In Acts 2:38 the gift was offered, but it first required repentance. God speaking through Luke said then ‘. . . ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’ Of course water baptism followed the new convert’s faith in Christ. Gifts at times have been rejected as duly noted in John 3:18 and Acts 7:51 and Leviticus 26:19. There are more examples but this will catch your attention.
Regards,
Ray
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi TC and Oldregular;
I say Calvinist do the same thing because they cannot give an account of How God elects man for Salvation in the first place without becomming a respecter of men. You say only a limited amount of men are elect but scripture never says how many or even if only some are.
However;
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles , for to provoke them to jealousy.
What is election if it isn't being chosen for Salvation, and this verse says that Salvation has come to the Gentiles. Who else would be in the world except for the Jews and Gentiles as far as the Jews are concerned. This is all man. We already know that those from Jacob are elect and the rest are Gentiles.
The only Calvinist who has ever attempted to show how God could elect only some without being a respector was Genembridges and he claimed that it was a random process. However he changed his mind when I asked if this meant our Salvation was left up to chance.
Fatalism is chance and this is what Calvinism believes Salvation is, Chance!!
What do you say?.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Man choosing to trust God is not man being Sovereign. Because faith in Him is impossible with out Knowledge from the word of God. The Word, Jesus Christ gave us that Knowledge so that we might obtain Grace through faith. How ever Calvinist see it as man trying to steal away God's Sovereignty.
I say Calvinist do the same thing because they cannot give an account of How God elects man for Salvation in the first place without becomming a respecter of men. You say only a limited amount of men are elect but scripture never says how many or even if only some are.
However;
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles , for to provoke them to jealousy.
What is election if it isn't being chosen for Salvation, and this verse says that Salvation has come to the Gentiles. Who else would be in the world except for the Jews and Gentiles as far as the Jews are concerned. This is all man. We already know that those from Jacob are elect and the rest are Gentiles.
The only Calvinist who has ever attempted to show how God could elect only some without being a respector was Genembridges and he claimed that it was a random process. However he changed his mind when I asked if this meant our Salvation was left up to chance.
Fatalism is chance and this is what Calvinism believes Salvation is, Chance!!
What do you say?.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Wes Outwest
New Member
NOT SO, Else no Brit would ever make a "sovereign decision"
Ray Berrian
New Member
Quote: Fatalism is chance and this is what Calvinism believes Salvation is, Chance!!
God is not running a Divine lottery. Almighty God demands that sinners repent. He knows that salvation is a human responsiblility before the Lord God. That is why God said in Acts 17:30:
'Now He commands everyone in all of the world to repent. Why? Because judgment day is coming to all souls. [Acts 17:31]
Sinner think they can get away with their sins and even some Christians believe that just because they are saved they can do what they want.
God calls all persons to human responsibility for their behavior.
No one will ever have a good excuse why they were damned to Hell forever. Why? Because of John 3:16.
Dr. Berrian
God is not running a Divine lottery. Almighty God demands that sinners repent. He knows that salvation is a human responsiblility before the Lord God. That is why God said in Acts 17:30:
'Now He commands everyone in all of the world to repent. Why? Because judgment day is coming to all souls. [Acts 17:31]
Sinner think they can get away with their sins and even some Christians believe that just because they are saved they can do what they want.
God calls all persons to human responsibility for their behavior.
No one will ever have a good excuse why they were damned to Hell forever. Why? Because of John 3:16.
Dr. Berrian
Wes Outwest
New Member
Well said Ray!
And even though man no longer dies for sin because Jesus atoned for sin, man is still accountable for his deeds.
The only reason a man is cast into the lake of fire, or into "outer darkness" as some scriptures say, is due to the one's lack of faith in God.
My gracious, why can't believers see this?
And even though man no longer dies for sin because Jesus atoned for sin, man is still accountable for his deeds.
The only reason a man is cast into the lake of fire, or into "outer darkness" as some scriptures say, is due to the one's lack of faith in God.
My gracious, why can't believers see this?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The us here is Paul talking about the Apostles as follows:
verse 5, who was "with Christ"? The Apostles,
Who was raised up to "heavenly places"? The Apostles who have written of their experiences, and see in John 17, Jesus Prayer to the father, in verses 6 though 20 Jesus is specifically speaking OF the Apostles. Likewise, the Heavenly places were revealed to Paul "whether in the body or out of the body" he was raise into heaven where the things of heaven were revealed to him, as were to John and Peter, and I believe the rest of the Apostles either through visions or through "out of body spiritual experiences".
Then Paul tells the Ephesians who did not "see" or "walk with", and were not "with" Jesus, and who were not "taught by God", that it is while God is in a state of Grace toward mankind, that we are saved through faith, and that not by anything in us, Salvation is a gift of God, and not a reward for our works, so no man can boast about being saved by any means except BY GOD through our FAITH in Him.
It is you who is incorrectly interpreting Eph 2:8&9. So open your eyes, open your heart to God let Him reveal the truth to you. Question what you read, don't accept everything "LITERALLY". Understand grace, it has no power to save, it is an attribute of the one possessing and exhibiting it to others. It is the One who is now exhibiting HIS grace to us all, who actually does the saving, and he only saves those from among us who have faith in Him. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD! </font>[/QUOTE]Who are the you in verse one?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I am not familiar with the passage Romans 8:35-19. May I assume you are talking about Romans 8:29-31. If so I will agree with your remarks above.
I like the remarks of John Dagg, a 19th Century Baptist, much better [Manual of Theology, page 322]:
“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Man choosing to trust God is not man being Sovereign. Because faith in Him is impossible with out Knowledge from the word of God. The Word, Jesus Christ gave us that Knowledge so that we might obtain Grace through faith. </font>[/QUOTE]Your above statement definitely makes man sovereign in Salvation.
First: God the Father foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4]. How can mortal man explain the decrees of God. Of course if man can save himself, he is sovereign in Salvation, then perhaps he can explain the decrees of God.
Second: I never said that only "a limited amount of men are elect".
This is simply a fulfilmrnt of the prophecy from Isaiah 6:8-11, confirmed by Jesus Christ in Matthew 13:13-16 and by Paul in Acts 28:25-28.
You correctly say that election is being chosen to Salvation, but only in Jesus Christ. I am not sure what your statement: "Who else would be in the world except for the Jews and Gentiles as far as the Jews are concerned." Obviously there are only Jews and Gentiles in the world.
I am not sure what your statement: "This is all man." means. What is all man, the Jews and the Gentiles?
As for your statement: "We already know that those from Jacob are elect and the rest are Gentiles." I would remind you that the Apostle Paul would differ with you. He says in Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.; Israel being Jacob.
You are completely and sadly wrong when you say Calvinism believes Salvation is chance. Calvinism [I prefer the term The Biblical Doctrines of Grace] does not leave Salvation to chance but makes it totally dependent on God, and God is totally dependable. Arminianism, which attempts to make man the author of his own Salvation, believes Salvation is only chance. If Salvation is dependent on your faith how can you be certain your faith is sufficient?Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
The only Calvinist who has ever attempted to show how God could elect only some without being a respector was Genembridges and he claimed that it was a random process. However he changed his mind when I asked if this meant our Salvation was left up to chance.
Fatalism is chance and this is what Calvinism believes Salvation is, Chance!!
What do you say?.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You correctly state that God is not running a Divine lottery. If it were not for election then Salvation would indeed be a lottery, wholly dependent on chance.
It is God the Father who foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
It is God the Son who agrees to humble Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, and die on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation so that none are lost [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].
It is God the Holy Spirit who agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God the Father and who regenerates and effectually calls those whom God the Father has chosen unto salvation [John 6: 37, 44; Ephesians 2:1-10].
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Old Regular;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
You got it and it makes Him a respecter of men.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Ray Berrian
New Member
Old Regular,
The humanistic idea of Effectual Calling has been belched out of Hell to patch up the theory of the second point of Calvinism.
Research the word, 'forknow' or 'foreknowledge' from the Greek and you will set aside a God Who cherry picks people for Heaven and Hell.
Either Christ died for every person or He did not. What saith Scripture. [Hebrews 2:9 & I John 2:2]
Deny these verses and you are saying that Jesus blood is ineffectual toward some sinners.
Study 'propitiation' also . . . it is good for the soul's understanding.
The humanistic idea of Effectual Calling has been belched out of Hell to patch up the theory of the second point of Calvinism.
Research the word, 'forknow' or 'foreknowledge' from the Greek and you will set aside a God Who cherry picks people for Heaven and Hell.
Either Christ died for every person or He did not. What saith Scripture. [Hebrews 2:9 & I John 2:2]
Deny these verses and you are saying that Jesus blood is ineffectual toward some sinners.
Study 'propitiation' also . . . it is good for the soul's understanding.
Wes Outwest
New Member
SIGH
BTW Arminianism is about all about CHANCE and POSSIBILITY and Calvinism is about the FACT all the Elect will ultimately be saved.