Sovereign in Salvation

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Old Regular,

The humanistic idea of Effectual Calling has been belched out of Hell to patch up the theory of the second point of Calvinism.

Your statement "humanistic idea of Effectual Calling has been belched out of Hell" denies the truth taught in the parable of the sower [Matthew 13:18-23]. Of the four who heard the word only one, the fourth, was effectually called. Why? Because he, having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, heard the word and understood it.

The Apostle Paul says it well in 1Corinthians 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. The natural man is the unregenerate man.

Jesus Christ perhaps says it better in John 6:37-40:

36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Those the Father gives the Son are those God chose to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].

Finally Jesus Christ expressed the truth of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation by the following simple statement:

John 10:26-29, KJV
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Old Regular,

In Matthew chapter 13 the sower scattered the seed, the Word of God everywhere. None of the seed was inferior nor was the sower discriminate as to what kind of ground it landed on in this parable. In fact there were four different kinds of ground that received the seed—the Word.

The ground portrays the different kinds of people and their hearts in relation to God. Various things made their lives different. Some people had hardened their hearts more than other ones. Sin always creates ill in those who continually sin and rebel against the Lord.

There is not one scintilla of evidence to blame the Lord for the majority of people going against Him, except their wayward selves. Psalms 58:3 says, ‘The wicked are extranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.’

Sinners sear their own conscience until the absolutely do not care about eternal matters of their soul. This is because of the result of Original Sin.

The interesting question to ask is why did Jesus call some sinner’s hearts/lives ‘. . . the good ground’ when all sinners are evil. The answer is found in the fact that you cannot ‘ ‘push the envelop’ in every direction to prove truth; parables only portray basic general truth that our Lord wants us to understand.

John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness as a witness to Jesus the Savior of the world [John 1:29]. It was his ministry to point people to the coming ‘true Light’ of Jesus ‘. . . that all people through Christ might believe in Him’ [John 1:7].

This is light years away from God autocratically selecting a group by Himself and making them fit to enter glory. John Calvin totally missed it here. But then being a recent convert to Jesus out of Roman Catholicism, we should not expect too much from him.

The funny thing is that some Protestants hold to the old theology coming from St. Augustine and Calvin in yesteryear---today more than other Christians who are in the Roman Catholic Church who are more Biblical in this area of consideration that we are talking about. Many priest and laity believe more in the direction of free will than people for example who are Reformed Baptists.

Anyway the ‘pick and choose’ theology goes back into the Dark Ages when Catholic Romanism ruled the world with an iron fist.

Regards,
Ray

 

[OldRegular]

Well Ray, I don't get my theology from the Roman Catholics and Augustine, or the Eastern Orthodox, or the Presbyterians and Calvin, I get it from the Bible.

There was a time in my life when I was a young man that I believed I was a partner with God in my salvation. However, as I studied Scripture and looked at people around me I came to understand that Salvation is the work of God alone. I came to understand that if my salvation were left up to me I was eternally lost. I couldn't run and hide from passages of Scripture like John 10:26-29; John 6:37-40; 1Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 1:3-6; Ephesians 2:1-8; Romans 8:29-31, and Acts 13:48.

Have you ever wondered why it is that some people have absolutely no interest in the things of God. I did and I searched Scripture to understand why. If you haven't you might ponder about it for a while and then recall the words of the Apostle Paul about the natural man.

 

[Spoudazo]

God is, and He authors our faith, it is a gift.

 

[OldRegular]

Ray, are you dispensationalist? I wonder because the Roman Catholics and Origen and Augustine get blamed for me being an amillennialist.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ray, are you dispensationalist? I wonder because the Roman Catholics and Origen and Augustine get blamed for me being an amillennialist.[end quote]

So you are in error about how His salvation event in people's lives works, plus in your eschatology. What did you get correct?

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Spoudazo said, 'God is, and He authors our faith, it is a gift.'

Yes, Spoudazo God is the eternal Being and Godhead.

God authors grace, but not faith. Grace is the gift of God offered to all sinners. [Ephesians 2:2-9]

Don't be careless in interpreting Scripture. Notice that in Hebrews 4:2 that everyone in hearing range heard the truth about salvation. Those who believed were saved and those who did not remained unsaved. Why?

The writer of the Book of Hebrews gives the answer. He did not say that God did not give grace and faith as a gift to those who remained unsaved. What God did say through the penman was that those who remained unsaved did '. . . not mix (their) faith (and trust) trust in what they heard. They heard the truth but wanted nothing of it.

As you said, faith is a gift and is not autocratically forced or implanted in priviledged souls.

The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces people of sins and they hear that Jesus can save them. [John 16:8] The Lord looks for their response to His call which is called faith in Jesus. [Isaiah 59:1; 65:2]

You and Regular might ponder this. [John 1:9 & James 3:9] Although we are fallen human beings because of Original Sin, sinners are not in such a bad condition that we cannot respond to Jesus mighty convicting power. We are created in the image of God and not even a good Calvinist can deny the truth of the human being---being created after the likeness of the Lord.

Would you dare to say that the Godhead is depraved?

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

You and Regular might ponder this. [John 1:9 & James 3:9] Although we are fallen human beings because of Original Sin, sinners are not in such a bad condition that we cannot respond to Jesus mighty convicting power.
Berrian, Th.D.

I made the point earlier that regeneration must precede faith. The reason being that before regeneration occurs we are spiritually dead and unable to do anything related to our own salvation. To support my assertion I used the following passage from Paul's letter to the church at Ephesus.

Ephesians 2:1-8 [NASB]

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

In verses 1-3 Paul describes the condition of the unregenerate man. In verses 4,5 Paul tells us that God made those who were dead in sin alive. There is no recorded action on the part of man. If man is spiritually dead how can he make any response to God. The Apostle Paul tells us clearly, as I have noted earlier, in 1 Corinthians 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Again as I noted earlier the natural man is the unregenerate man, spiritually dead and unable to efficiently respond to God unless and until God makes him spiritually alive through regeneration.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

Ray, are you dispensationalist? I wonder because the Roman Catholics and Origen and Augustine get blamed for me being an amillennialist.[end quote]

So you are in error about how His salvation event in people's lives works, plus in your eschatology. What did you get correct?

Berrian, Th.D.

That you are a follower of Darby/Scofield.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Old Regular,

Was Darby a Five Point Calvinist? I know that Scofield believed in eternal security. I also believe in eternal security.

I studied fifty years and do believe in four points of Arminianism but also believe in E.S. I never studied the pages of Arminianism theology but find that the points do not disagree with the Bible, God's Word.

And yes I do believe in the rapture [I Thessalonians 4:14-17]and the Millennial Kingdom being on the earth for 1,000 years. Notice in I Thess. 4:16d that *only 'the dead in Christ will arise' from the dead and not the sinners.

Zechariah chapter 14 & Revelation 20 point toward Christ reigning on earth in the future from the city of Jerusalem. [Zechariah 14:2,4,14,16,17,21]

The Judgment Seat of Christ is distinct from the Great White Throne Judgment and the first one is for Christians who will be evaluated by Jesus right after the rapture of His church to Heaven.

The Great White . . . will be at the end of the world, when the wicked dead will be raised from their graves. [Revelation 20:5] This will be at the end of human history.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Dr Ray Berrian Th.D. It's nice to see you are back!

We are created in the image of God and not even a good Calvinist can deny the truth of the human being---being created after the likeness of the Lord.

What is this you have but a trap? You must have more info at your finger tips because you really shouldn't attempt this again otherwise.
I'm not sure what a good Calvinist is, will I do?

Gen 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. " 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

That's the opener. Got your shovel ready? Man is not created in the image of God but are in fact created after Adam.

God authors grace, but not faith.

Just looked up what Th.D means to Merriam Webster and I am amazed to find it means a doctor of theology! Are you using it in the same way? If no what does it mean? If yes then why do you not understand it impresses no one but you? Heb 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Ray Berrian Th.D denies scripture. Heal yourself Doc.

johnp.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Old Regular,

And yes I do believe in the rapture [I Thessalonians 4:14-17]and the Millennial Kingdom being on the earth for 1,000 years. Notice in I Thess. 4:16d that *only 'the dead in Christ will arise' from the dead and not the sinners.

You are mistaken. The passage from 1 Thessalonians [4:14-17] does not say that only "the dead in Christ will arise". It only says the dead in Christ will rise first. I would point you to John 5:28, 29 which states that all the dead will be raised in the same hour.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Oldregular;

I would point you to John 5:28, 29 which states that all the dead will be raised in the same hour.

Have you ever thought of just how long a hour is to man when it's considerd on God's time scale and not mans. That is if a day to God is a year to man. Something like two or maybe even 3 weeks Of course there is another scale of time as a day being a 1000 years "Who-ah" scary ain't it
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Spoudazo:
God is, and He authors our faith, it is a gift.

Again Spoudazo, you are quite simply wrong! God has NO FAITH TO GIVE! He has however, given man every reason to have FAITH in Him!

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

2 Timoth 3:14,15 "you have known the holy scriptures, from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Please Spoudazo, Tell me what you think God would have a hope for if he knows everything, Sees everything, created everything? What would divine God need of faith?

But because HE created man, He knows that man cannot know or see, and therefore has to have something, so in creating us he gave us the capacity to have faith. And he made it our responsibility to take in knowledge by which we can formulate faith.

No, God did not give us faith. Faith is not the gift of God spoken of in Eph 2:8,9, "saved" is the gift of God. and that is confirmed throughout scripture that Salvation is the Gift of God to those who have faith in Him.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Johnp,

The thing that amazes me the most about you is that you put error on this Christian Baptist Board for all to see.

You said, [quote} 'That's the opener. Got your shovel ready? Man is not created in the image of God but are in fact created after Adam.' [/quote]

Have your children or grandchildren explain Genesis 1:26,27; 3:22. End of discussion.

If you do not understand the meaning of the Hebrew word in Hebrew for 'God' in these verses, consult your local rabbi.

With your ill will I guess only Calvinists with a Th.D. really count in your book. Hey, the good thing coming out of this is you might still learn something if you were opened to the Holy Spirit.

Best regards as you struggle to find the truth.

Ray

 

[johnp.]

Ray.

With your ill will I guess only Calvinists with a Th.D. really count in your book.

No, the only one that counts to me is the one that speaks the word of God whatever his designation is.
I see you flinch back from me. Why? Why do you not attempt to answer me? Because you cannot?

Hey, the good thing coming out of this is you might still learn something if you were opened to the Holy Spirit.

That is probably true that I will learn something but it seems to me as if you never learn anything. If you do not understand the meaning of the Hebrew word in Hebrew for 'God' in these verses, consult your local rabbi. You really expect me to believe that you know Hebrew after the mess you made with the Greek sometime ago? Do you remember that? I do. Enlighten me please. Bring what you mean into the light instead of leaving it in vague shadows.

The thing that amazes me the most about you is that you put error on this Christian Baptist Board for all to see.

How is that? You said, "God authors grace, but not faith. God says; "Heb 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith Explain yourself man. You oppose scripture not me. You say we are created in the likeness of God but God says we are created in the likeness of man. Who puts lies for truth and truth for lies?

If you do not understand the meaning of the Hebrew word in Hebrew for 'God' in these verses, consult your local rabbi.

I didn't know I had a local Rabbi! Is this true? Have we all got a local Rabbi? Where do I look Yell.com? Is it by the hour or by the difficulty of the question and do we get our money back, assuming it is chargable, if he does not know. Is this where you get your Th.D from?
You tell me. You know Hebrew.

Have your children or grandchildren explain Genesis 1:26,27; 3:22. End of discussion.

End of discussion? You started it. Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

And to bring it onto topic, in fear least we get it in the neck, this is the reason we cannot save ourselves. We are born dead in spirit to God. We are like this because He made us like this. Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
And that is His perogative. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Show one example of natural man where it is said that he is in the likeness of God and you win.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Show one example of natural man where it is said that he is in the likeness of God and you win.

You consistantly reject the truth so there is no point in posting it again.

You insist that we are made in the image of Seth, which is the natural follow-on to Genesis 5:3, which followed to its natural conclusion results in man being made in the image of man's biological father. Hardly something that God would be interested in since that is the way He made man, and being omniscient he would already know the result of his design, he wouldn't have to wait for the third male offspring of his created man Adam to come up with such a profound truth!

So It seems to me you have not thought deeply enough about your belief. You are merely avoiding the truth that ALL mankind is made in the Image of God.

Pong! the ball is in your court!

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

Pong! the ball is in your court!

I think that should have been a ping not a pong. Are you cross threading?

You consistantly reject the truth so there is no point in posting it again.

If you could show me one you would show me one. If you could show me one I would not then demand more and say that one does not a norm make! Anyway I don't know why you are getting shirty about it I never asked you I asked Dr Ray.

So It seems to me you have not thought deeply enough about your belief. You are merely avoiding the truth that ALL mankind is made in the Image of God.

Well it simple then isn't it? "Show one example of natural man where it is said that he is in the likeness of God and you win."
Now I have asked you again but don't think, You consistantly reject the truth so there is no point in posting it again. Has anything going for it. It just makes you look as if you are avoiding the issue. "Show one example of natural man where it is said that he is in the likeness of God and you win." Just one will do.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Genesis 1:26,27 God said, "Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground." God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.

Notice that All after the first are in the same image!

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

Notice that All after the first are in the same image!

What are you talking about? The 'all'? What 'all'? The two of them 'all'?
If you mean 'all men ever' then why does God have to transform us into His likeness later if we already are in His likeness and image?

"Show one example of natural man where it is said that he is in the likeness of God and you win." Simple enough or cede me the win! It's good for your soul.

2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

johnp.