Sovereign in Salvation

[Ray Berrian]

Johnp,

‘Show one example of natural man where it is said that he is in the likeness of God and you win.’

James, the half-brother of our Lord, has told us not to curse other men or women because even the sinner is ‘. . . made after the similitude of God,’ not Adam and Eve as you wrongfully think. Review the verse for yourself. I know you don’t know where this is found or you would not utter your unbiblical ideas.

The Greek word, similitude, is {homoiosin} meaning after the resemblance or similarity of the Lord God.

I do not recommend any translation in particular. This may help you. The New Century Version offers this explanation.

‘We use our tongues to praise our Lord and Father, but then we curse people, whom God made like Himself.’

In theology we call this the ‘image of God in man’. {or woman}

The writer of the book said under Divine authorship that Christians should not bless at some times and curse people at other times. He says, Brethren these things ought not to be.

The servant of God, James, did not say that only those who are ‘born again’ are created in the image of God, but even those alleged, Totally Depraved sinners who you believe do not have the ability to understand the plan of salvation. God the Spirit always attends the Word of God and sinners do understand their lack of spiritual life. If they did not understand, the Lord could not hold them accountable at the Great White Throne Judgment.

You will find this truth in James chapter three.

I know you will still hold to your opinion because it is not easy to bend your mind and spirit to the truth coming from God the Holy Spirit. But there is hope . . .

Even if you still believe your idea, please, select one of your translations and copy it down for the rest of us. Maybe the repetition will help you come to the truth.

Regards,
Ray

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Oldregular;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I would point you to John 5:28, 29 which states that all the dead will be raised in the same hour.

Have you ever thought of just how long a hour is to man when it's considerd on God's time scale and not mans. That is if a day to God is a year to man. Something like two or maybe even 3 weeks Of course there is another scale of time as a day being a 1000 years "Who-ah" scary ain't it
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

</font>[/QUOTE]Please don't corrupt the clear teaching of Scripture because of your false ideas concerning God and time. God is eternal, that means time does not exist for God. God created time only for man's benefit.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Spoudazo:
God is, and He authors our faith, it is a gift.

Again Spoudazo, you are quite simply wrong! God has NO FAITH TO GIVE! He has however, given man every reason to have FAITH in Him!

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

2 Timoth 3:14,15 "you have known the holy scriptures, from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Please Spoudazo, Tell me what you think God would have a hope for if he knows everything, Sees everything, created everything? What would divine God need of faith?

But because HE created man, He knows that man cannot know or see, and therefore has to have something, so in creating us he gave us the capacity to have faith. And he made it our responsibility to take in knowledge by which we can formulate faith.

No, God did not give us faith. Faith is not the gift of God spoken of in Eph 2:8,9, "saved" is the gift of God. and that is confirmed throughout scripture that Salvation is the Gift of God to those who have faith in Him. </font>[/QUOTE]You limit God and you deny Scripture. Ephesians 2:8 tells us:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Wes Outwest]

What specifically do you believe is the Gift of God?
Is it an Attribute such as Grace?
Is Faith which God does not have to Give.
or is it Salvation which is God's alone to give?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Johnp,

What are you talking about? The 'all'? What 'all'? The two of them 'all'?
If you mean 'all men ever' then why does God have to transform us into His likeness later if we already are in His likeness and image?

Don't you know that every species bears its own, and not that of another species? What is canine is canine, bovine is bovine, feline is feline. Even among those groups there are distinctions. Among Canines there are Dalmations, pit bulls, chihuahuas, poodles, etc, in the bovine there are Herefords, Angus, Brahman, Jersey, Guernsy, Holstein, etc., but there are no "pitbull-herefords", nor "Angus-poodles", but I would have thought you knew that.

If we are in God's image we have the same essence as that of God. Jesus tells us in John 4:24, "God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth." What is the image of Spirit if it is not spirit? Every human is spirit residing in a body of flesh. That spirit works with what it is given. For most of mankind the spirit is fed Garbage, music with disharmony and disparaging words. Constant bombardment with images from TV of death, corruption, infidelity, corrupt sexuality, immorality of all kinds, fraud deceit,e etc. A steady diet of those images desensitizes one's spirit, and significantly reduces the biblical fruit of the spirit, in the same manner the pornography reduces the person to the status of animals always lusting, following the urgings of the flesh (which is nothing more than the spirit handing over control to the flesh).

But the spirit that is submitted to God produces the fruit that Paul tells us about.

Paul teaches about "the fruits of the spirit". That spirit is in us and it is with our human spirit that we produce "the fruit of the spirit". What are the fruits of the spirit if not, that which is true of us? Paul Teaches of "the fruit of the Spirit as being love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, gentleness and self-control; no law can touch such things as these."? The reason no law can touch them is, they are ALL attributes (something true) of the one possessing them, and they are the result of a "good spirit", a reborn spirit, because they all come out of the human spirit that has been submitted to the Christ. Those attributes reside within the spirit of man, but are only manifested by man when man has been set free in Christ.

 

[Ray Berrian]

West,Outwest,

True. Good post. Yes, we are in the image of God though it has been compromised by Original Sin.

Sinners can and do respond to the simplicity of the Gospel.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

Please don't corrupt the clear teaching of Scripture because of your false ideas concerning God and time.

The clear teaching of scripture!

God is eternal, that means time does not exist for God. God created time only for man's benefit.

What an amazing piece of work. Where in scripture does it say that time does not exist for God? Nowhere is a clue. Where does scripture say that God created time? Nowhere is a clue. Where does scripture say time was created for man? Nowhere is a clue.
Please don't corrupt the clear teaching of Scripture because of your false ideas concerning God and time.
What are you on man? And can I have some.

Your post posted 13 March, 2005 01:45 is meaningless.

"Show one example of natural man where it is said that he is in the likeness of God and you win."
Can't say fairer than that old man. You could cede me my point you know you are on a loser.

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

Ray.
"Show one example of natural man where it is said that he is in the likeness of God and you win."

[James says all men are]...‘. . . made after the similitude of God,’

Does he?

Review the verse for yourself. I know you don’t know where this is found or you would not utter your unbiblical ideas.

I like it! Start the day as you mean to go on.

JAS 3:9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

I do not recommend any translation in particular. This may help you. The New Century Version offers this explanation.

'Similitude' is a fine word, a bit old around the edges but within range.

The servant of God, James, did not say that only those who are ‘born again’ are created in the image of God, but even those alleged, Totally Depraved sinners who you believe do not have the ability to understand the plan of salvation.

Well they were the ones James was talking to. They were fighting among themselves so James tells them off.
JAS 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?
The people outside the Church are not coming into this conversation whatsoever. James is correcting the Church and it's behaviour within the Church and nothing more.
And they are Christians who are being tranformed. 2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Why do Christians need transforming into the likeness if they are already in His likeness?

Sinners can and do respond to the simplicity of the Gospel.

JUDE 1:12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

But to us;
JUDE 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-- 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

similitude, n.
1. likeness; resemblance: a similitude of habits.
2. a person or thing that is like or the match or counterpart of another: This expression is a similitude of the other.
3. semblance; image: a similitude of the truth.
4. a likening or comparison in the form of a simile, parable, or allegory: He spoke by similitudes.

-- King James
James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

-- American Standard
James 3:9 Therewith bless we the Lord and Father; and therewith curse we men, who are made after the likeness of God:

-- Living Bible
James 3:9 Sometimes it praises our heavenly Father, and sometimes it breaks out into curses against men who are made like God.

-- Revised Standard
James 3:9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in the likeness of God.

-- Simple English
James 3:9 How can we, with our tongues, praise the Lord , Father, and yet curse human beings who were made in the image of God?

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
James 3:9 En autee'eulogou'men to'n Ku'rion {*} kai' Pate'ra kai' en autee'kataroo'metha tou's anthroo'pous tou's kath homoi'oosin Theou'gegono'tas,

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
James 3:9 En auteeulogoumen ton Kurion {*} kai Patera kai en autekatarometha tous anthropous tous kath homoiosin Theougegonotas,

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
James 3:9 We use it to bless the Lord and Father, but we also use it to curse people who are made in God's image:

-- Young's Bible
James 3:9 with it we do bless the God and Father, and with it we do curse the men made according to the similitude of God;

-- Darby's Bible
James 3:9 Therewith bless we the Lord and Father, and therewith curse we men made after the likeness of God.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
James 3:9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in God's likeness.

-- Webster's Bible
James 3:9 With this we bless God, even the Father; and with this we curse men, who are made after the similitude of God.

 

[Wes Outwest]

johnp,
I have shown you, but here it is again:

26. God said, "Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground." God created man in the image of himself,in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.

Please NOTICE this is a deliberate, Premeditated ACT OF CREATION BY GOD OF A CREATED BEING IN HIS IMAGE, LIKENESS, SIMILITUDE. Nothing that God has created has changed that Image from what God made it to be! SIN HAS NOT CHANGED THE IMAGE, ONLY THE BEHAVIOR OF THE IMAGE!

-- King James Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

-- American Standard Genesis 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

-- Living Bible Genesis 1:27 So God made man like his Maker.Like God did God make man;Man and maid did he make them.

-- Revised Standard Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable Genesis 1:27 wayibraa' 'Elohiym 'et- haa'aadaam btsalmow btselem'Elohiym baaraa' 'otow zaakaar uwnqeebaah baaraa' 'otaam.

-- Transliterated, Unaccented Genesis 1:27 wayibra' 'Elohiym 'et- ha'adam btsalmow btselem'Elohiym bara' 'otow zakar uwnqebah bara' 'otam.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha Genesis 1:27 God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.

-- Young's Bible Genesis 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.

-- Darby's Bible Genesis 1:27 And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

-- Webster's Bible Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[Wes Outwest]

johnp,

Your post posted 13 March, 2005 01:45 is meaningless.

Can't find a post with this date/time group. Perhaps you could post the leading paragraph.

By the way did you set the time differential in your profile? At the top of the page select "my profile" then in the next page select "edit profile" then in the next page select "time adjustment" Since I am west of the BBS, my time is set to -3, that is BBS time minus 3 hours. Since you are east of the BBS, yours would be +5 hours or BBS Plus 5 hours (according to the time zone you are in) then save your changes.

 

[Wes Outwest]

And they are Christians who are being tranformed. 2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Why do Christians need transforming into the likeness if they are already in His likeness?

SIN HAS NOT CHANGED THE IMAGE, ONLY THE BEHAVIOR OF THE IMAGE! It is not our image that is being transformed, it is the behavior of our image that is being conformed to the behavior of the one in whose image we are made.

All mankind is made in the image of God, we are "equals" in that image. Sin, since it entered the world thru the first man, has changed the behavior of ALL mankind from Adam to now. Jesus, who is God the Son, and in whose image we are made, is the one man (God-Man) thru whom redemption is made. He offered himself up a sacrifice to atone for SIN, ALL sin...even the sin that ELI's house wallowed in and refused to repent of, thus, ALL men do not face death for sin but can through belief (faith) in even the name of Jesus, pass from death and have everlasting life.

No, Eli's house did not recognize the name of Jesus, it had not been revealed to them as yet, nor did they repent from their cursing God because Eli did not correct them! Thus there is no atonement for them because cursing God is Blasphemy, and Since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, their blasphemy is of the Holy Spirit, the sin for which there is no pardon.

And yours may be just as great as that of Eli's house because you deny that Jesus is God the son, in your repititious asking of the question about All men being drawn. If you do know in your spirit that Jesus is God the son, you would not continue to persue that vain line of questioning.
But no, you are trying to deliberately trip up, those who's faith and belief is that Jesus is God the son who by being lifted up on the cross has indeed drawn all men to him, but not necessarily "in Him" or "He in them".

I know of no man who is not attracted to the story of one man giving up his life for the lives of all mankind. We, all nations, thus all mankind, honor those who through self sacrifice have indeed prevented the deaths of others. We revere them as Hero's from among us. Yes, even merry ol' England does the same.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

GE 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
GE 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Please NOTICE this is a deliberate, Premeditated ACT OF CREATION BY GOD OF A CREATED BEING IN HIS IMAGE, LIKENESS, SIMILITUDE.

And what is that image? Could it be spiritual or physical? If it is spiritual then the fall destroyed that image. GE 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
Instead of man now being in the image of God they were created in the image of man. What was that image? Was it spiritual or was it physical?
I believe you think that this likeness and image is physical but that would make no sense according to the verse preceeding it. GE 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. "
Then He says;
GE 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
Do you really try to go from the spiritual to the physical? Why, what is the reason?
The image of God was lost at the fall otherwise there would be no need to transform us into the likeness of God once we are born again. 2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
JAS 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? James is talking to the Church. The Church are the ones being transformed into the likeness of God.
Your argument is wrong.

IN HIS IMAGE, LIKENESS, SIMILITUDE

This will at least stop you from trying to split the difference between likeness and image this time.

Thanks for the info. I have adjusted the time thing but now I can't find the post in question.

It is not our image that is being transformed, it is the behavior of our image that is being conformed to the behavior of the one in whose image we are made.

No we are being transformed not conformed but if you have it your way we are being transformed into what we are or conformed into what we are? Our behaviour will change when we are born again because our spirits are made alive and we are reconnected to the Lord. But even as the born again Children of God we are still not in His image and will not be in His image, but being transformed into that image, until we are called into the air to stand where no man can stand together with our brothers and sisters in the image and likeness of the One we are to spend forever with.

johnp.

 

[OldRegular]

A few passages of Scripture that may shed some light:

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Ephesians 2:2, 3
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Romans 3:10-18
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

He offered himself up a sacrifice to atone for SIN, ALL sin...even the sin that ELI's house wallowed in and refused to repent of, thus, ALL men do not face death for sin but can through belief (faith) in even the name of Jesus, pass from death and have everlasting life.

God said;
14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
Wes says;
He offered himself up a sacrifice to atone for SIN, ALL sin...even the sin that ELI's house wallowed in and refused to repent of...
You are the DDiv then I see? 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
Oh yes you did God cause Wes says!

Eli did not correct them!

He did what he could. He rebuked them but they would not listen to him. Why did they not listen to him? They ...did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death. 1 Sam 2:25.

Thus there is no atonement for them because cursing God is Blasphemy...

Jesus died for all sins or just some? You are into limited atonement if blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has not been atoned for! Watch your step I can see a fall coming.

I know of no man who is not attracted to the story of one man giving up his life for the lives of all mankind.

Strange thing to say. Is this because you have the wrong story? It is your idea that He gave His life for the whole of mankind even if you have to gouge your eyes out so that Eli the blind man can't show you the truth. But it is not you that blinds you it is the Lord Almighty that blinds you and stops up your ears so that you will not see the light or hear the truth. Why? You should ask Him yourself you are in great danger.

We, all nations, thus all mankind, honor those who through self sacrifice have indeed prevented the deaths of others. We revere them as Hero's from among us. Yes, even merry ol' England does the same..

Indeed but merry old Englanders don't like the idea either that Jesus only died for some thus becoming a bad smell to your delicate noses. Not such a team player for us is He when He raises a man up just to destroy Him! Not such a nice chap now 'a'?

And yours may be just as great as that of Eli's house because you deny that Jesus is God the son, in your repititious asking of the question about All men being drawn.

I wallowed like a pig! But this is so wrong, to think that Eli's house had done something that God could not forgive but that He did not want to is more to the point. They ...did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death. 1 Sam 2:25. God is Sovereign. The Lord Jesus Christ who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped... PHP 2:6.
...in your repititious asking of the question about All men being drawn. It's only repititious because you won't answer the point. Did He or did He not draw all men? To say no as you must means that you lose your argument and death is better than admitting God is right and you are wrong. He offered himself up a sacrifice to atone for SIN, ALL sin...even the sin that ELI's house wallowed in and refused to repent of...
Even after God says He has sworn an oath that He would not atone for Eli you say He did. And you have the bare faced nerve to call me? Of course you have. If you can do it to God who the Hell am I? 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

Even after God says He has sworn an oath that He would not atone for Eli you say He did.

That should read;

Even after God says He has sworn an oath that He would not atone for Eli's house you say He did.

johnp.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Johnp,

I'm surprised that your Calvinists buddies have not set you straight as to every human being--being born in the image of God.

You twist Scripture more than any other human being that I have known. Keep on holding on to your 5 pts. and you will do it all the time.

You are too far off the scope to even help, my friend.

Ray

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Even after God says He has sworn an oath that He would not atone for Eli you say He did.

That should read;

Even after God says He has sworn an oath that He would not atone for Eli's house you say He did.

johnp.

No, that is not what I said! I said that Jesus atoned for the world including the sin that Eli's house is guilty of, which is cursing God. I did not say that Eli's house was forgiven, and indeed it was not because they refused to repent, not because the sin they were doing was not forgiveable. Since then however, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has become the unforgiveable sin thanks to Eli!

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

JohnP;
You've been harping about Eli for a month now. Eli is not a great support for Calvinism because Eli was of Israel and you're claim that He was lost. Well so much for not being able to fall huh. So much for election guaranteeing your Salvation huh. In your ignorance you keep bringing up what destroys your own false Calvinist doctrine. By all means keep it up you are only proving the position you're against.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[johnp.]

Ray.

I'm surprised that your Calvinists buddies have not set you straight as to every human being--being born in the image of God.

That an interesting thing to say. Do you think they think I'm wrong?

You twist Scripture more than any other human being that I have known.

I will twist that into a backhanded compliment. You mean I prove you wrong more than anyone else? I think that you may be exaggerating a little but I must say that was some hole you fell down a little while ago if you remember. Not me really just you boasting of your Greek that was not up to much.

Keep on holding on to your 5 pts. and you will do it all the time.

A strange sentence but I will take it in the spirit it was given in and I will reply that you will not chose what I shall do my God decides that for all of us.

You are too far off the scope to even help, my friend.

No one is too far of the scope for God to help.

johnp.