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Spiritual Death ,The Remedy, The Restoration of Sacred Space

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Feb 17, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, it isn't.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Here is part of your misunderstanding.

    Your view is within orthodox Christianity. But so is mine. "Orthodox" does not mean "whatever Iconoclast believes".

    So there is a need to define terms rather than hide from the process.
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Listen my friend,
    You do not get to tell everyone what is orthodox as if everyone is beholden to you. You are quite often wrong. You sit there saying this is wrong and that is wrong, as if everyone is waiting for your input.
    As you suggest all the time...start your own thread. You have done nothing here but try to undermine yet another thread.
    Start your own thread. What you are offering is not welcome here. You are constantly off topic.
    Iconoclast is not the topic, Sacred space is.
     
  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    OK, what is "sacred space?"

    What is the "restoration of sacred space?"
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This may be a little of topic, but I tried to find "spiritual life" in the KJV and the NASB and could not find it. Can you reference the verse or passage that says or implies Enoch gained "spiritual life?" My view of course is no one obtained "spiritual life" until they were placed spiritually into the risen Christ. Enoch had to wait in Abraham's bosom until he could be made perfect with the rest of the OT saints.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It is the place of the Divine-human encounter.

    Here is a biblical example;
    Gen28:
    10 And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.

    11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

    12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

    13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

    14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

    15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

    16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said,
    Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.


    17 And he was afraid, and said,
    How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.


    18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.

    19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.


    It is the place of the Divine, Human, interaction.
    First Adam lost it, The Last Adam restores the Divine Human interaction, the open communion leading to seeing the Lord face , to face.
    Hebrews9:

    23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    In the english it says appear 3x...
    in the greek, 3 different forms of the word;

    vs24 he always was there, but appeared like the sun appears in the morning
    vs 26> he shall appear as an advocate, like a lawyer in the court room,

    vs28> he shall
    appear face to face

    Another example if the transfiguration;
    Matthew 17 King James Version (KJV)
    17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

    7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

    8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

    9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.




     
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  7. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    @Iconoclast , so does your use of the term "sacred place" and "restoration of sacred place" have to do with the sinner's reconciliation with God through Christ? I am gleaning that from the title of your thread. If that is what you mean then I quite agree. Sin broke the relationship Adam enjoyed with God in the Garden. The seed of the woman was promised as a permanent remedy for that problem, although the Old Testament sacrificial system provided a temporary remedy. What confused me at first was your use of the word "place". God's remedy for sin is not so much a place as it a person, although I understand your examples in post #26.
     
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are no such verses (I agree with you).

    The idea Adam or anyone had spiritual life outside of Christ is unbiblical and based on faulty logic (arguing for a state of death to exist one must first have had life).
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I did not insult you and there is no need for you to be insulting to me.

    You are not the crux of orthodoxy. On another thread you said my view (Christus Victor) was unorthodox. That was wrong. Here you say you do not need to define terms because you use the "orthodox" definition. That is also wrong (there is no single orthodox definition).

    My definition that spiritual life is being sealed by God with the Spirit of God dwelling in us, that is, Christ in us which is being born again of seed which is imperishable placed in Christ is not only an orthodox view but it is scriptural.

    You disagree with that view but you do not get to call other peoples views unorthodox just because you do not like that they disagree with you.

    By your inability I take it you are unable to define "spiritual life" in a way that agrees with your theories and Scripture. That is unfortunate because without being able to define terms your opinions are meaningless.

    1. You need to define spiritual life and death.

    2. You need to define sacred space.

    3. You need to define the state to which you view Nanking being restored.

    That is what I am saying. You do not need to define orthodoxy (the rest of us know there are competing views within orthodox Christianity - you are not the determining factor). But you do need to define your terms.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The problem is the emphasis on place. The reason he ground Moses stood upon was holy was the presence of God, not the place. Viewing the space as sacred because of a divine-human encounter is problematic and seems to approach idolatry. I suspect you hold it differently (not idolatry) but you need to better define the term.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes....the first Adam fell resulting in our complete alienation from the life of God.
    The last Adam raises man above Angel's and by the indwelling Spirit enables us to be conformed to the image of the Son.
    Hebrews 9 and ten speaks of the confidence we can have now it prayer, and the Covenant certainty of our eternal intimate relationship with our Lord and master, by virtue of our saving Union with Christ.

    The word place is employed because in redemptive history God would have times and places designed to meet with men, the mercy seat being front and center, with only the High Priest going beyond the veil.
    The whole book of Hebrews is written as an exhortation culminating with the promise of never being forsaken by God...Heb13:5-20.
     
    #31 Iconoclast, Feb 18, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    We no longer need to go to a place to worship/commune with God.

    John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
    23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
    24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
     
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  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Where do you get this info. How do you know what happened to Enoch. I'd like to see scripture for what you just wrote.
    MB
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think what is missing is we are that sacred space. We are called to be holy because God is holy, it is Christ in us. This is why we are not to take the profane (sin) into our lives. We are that "holy ground".
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hebrews 9:23 is a key text in showing the link in virtually every aspect of the work of the Servant of The Lord being demonstrated in type and shadow so we can connect the dots to the heavenly reality of the eternal restoration of Sacred Space.
    Far from being pagan or gnostic this is the core of biblical revelation.
     
  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Sorry but "connecting the dots"--by definition--cannot and is not the "core of biblical revelation."
     
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  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    #5 lol

    The individual biblical. Dots are the core of the ology scattered throughout the Bible. When some of the material was offered to you you scoffed at it and called it spam you and another poster thought of it as spam but if you going to think like that you're going to get very little ahead of anyone offering of Truth for you
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ultimately what you are insisting on is the things you see as implied divine inspiration (what @InTheLight calls "connecting the dots) is a type of "special secondary inspiration". It is not in Scripture (hence your inability to provide Scripture itself as a foundation for your theology) but is what you see as "taught by Scripture" (which, of course, is dependent not on God but on your choice of men to follow in terms of teachers).

    I think that members here can detect that you are self-taught and have accumulated the teachings of many Reformed preachers and teachers to be your guide. But at the same time you seem not to grasp their teachings within a biblical structure (you seem to seek and support indoctrination as you have chosen a theology and its supporters as your lens through which you will interpret and evaluate Scripture).

    I understand it can be difficult "doing theology" without being educated in theology. I suggest that you may do better to slow down and stick with Scripture. Leave theology to the theologians, teaching to the teachers, preaching to the preachers, and learn from them all (even those who hold other views).
     
  19. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Sorry to inform you, but if you quote a single Bible verse, then say to connect the dots throughout scripture--but offering none, we're just supposed to take your enlightened word for it--it is impossible for you to claim that is a core biblical revelation.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is what I wrote: My view of course is no one obtained "spiritual life" until they were placed spiritually into the risen Christ. Enoch had to wait in Abraham's bosom until he could be made perfect with the rest of the OT saints.

    Ephesians 2:5 says we were "made alive" together with Christ. Since we already were "physically alive" and "spiritually dead in our sin" my view is being placed in Christ makes us spiritually alive. All the OT saints had to wait to be made perfect, Hebrews 11:39-40. No one entered "heaven" (the kingdom of God) before Christ was incarnated, John 3:13. These are the verses among others upon which my widely held view is based.
     
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