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Spiritual Death ,The Remedy, The Restoration of Sacred Space

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Feb 17, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Iconoclast ,

    The issue here is you seem to have accumulated terms and ideas that are well beyond your grasp (simply going by your inability to define terms and explain your position). You have gone well above your head and cannot defend the positions you think you hold because you cannot grasp the views you pretend to believe.


    So let's start with an easy one (something you should have defined first off). What is "spiritual life"?
     
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Then where did God take Enoch?
    Spiritually dead only means to be separated from God. Our spirit is not literally dead
    Actually being saved makes us spiritually alive. Or close to God
    Paul wrote;
    Rom_7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    This above shows we are not born sinners but are born in sin and until we know the law we are still alive simply because babes do not know the Law.Enoch was born before Abraham. Before the Law and He was a great prophet. Where there is no Law there is no sin. No spiritual death.
    MB.
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The members can "detect" I am self taught, because I have posted that about a dozen times,lol...it does not take the FBI to detect it, lol
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Members can detect that you are self taught because you will not listen to anyone but yourself. You choose men that you will sit under as a disciple and close your ears to any Christian that would challenge your view or offer you anything contrary to the men you idolize. To you, Scripture means "the Word of Iconoclast" as evidenced by your unwillingness to explore how your views were developed. You just think it is what it is, and your view is what God said. You proved this observation correct when you determined my view "unorthodox" when it is a very orthodox position. Ignorance is one thing. Willful ignorance is another entirely.

    It is my experience such people gravitate towards Calvinism (for its simplicity). But that does not excuse referring to all other views as "unorthodox" and being blind to other people's views.

    You have not defined spiritual life (defining terms should have been the first thing you did). So start there. Define spiritual life.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Your attack posts are off topic.
    Go to your own threads and post what you want to

    Iconoclast is not the subject of the OP.
     
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Interesting. I arrived at the BB in 2001 and you almost ten years later (2010).

    So you are admitting that you followed me here. I really am not surprised given your conduct on that other board where you were banned for lying and stalking people.

    The problem then is that you have some type of agenda. You have seen that I disagree with you so you have followed me to the BB and continued an agenda about me in order to silence me. You said as much when you suggested that I just leave.

    You took credit for driving DHK away (he really left for mission work). And you made it pretty clear that your agenda was to censor me and silence anyone who would dare to challenge your opinions. You are the definition of an internet bully, Iconoclast. But that's fine. I'm not a school age kid. I'm going no where. If you want to lie about me, to try to call me (I already had to block your number so that's not a problem), to stalk me, to harass me, to falsely accuse me, to slander me, to try to belittle and insult me then please feel free. Go ahead. You have my permission. I don't care. You be you.

    I would warn other members to guard their phone numbers and information very tightly when it comes to dealing with you, but that's just common sense (something I failed to do).
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    My post is on topic. I am saying that you need to define the terms you use in the OP. That is not an "attack post". It is common sense.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    More falsehoods from Jon C

    I came to this board when I saw a link to Skandelon, aka, Leighton Flowers...
    I came to answer him, not you.
    Your posts are insignificant and I will answer when I am finished driving.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Cat got your tongue?

    The reason I can say this is that I have studied those men you follow and I know that some you agree with but others you take severely out of context. There are people here who can help you, who can work with you through theology and work with you to come to a better knowledge of what is being said. Going it alone only gets you so far, Iconoclast. Here it has gotten you into error. You do not know what you are talking about and often misrepresent or cannot expound on the quotes you offer over and over again.

    Life is not a snip of good quotes. Theology is not lifting several pages from one man you follow and a few chapters of another.

    You need to understand these things and interact with them so that they become a reference to your views rather than you tossing up what someone else has said. But you need to start with Scripture. You have it backwards.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    THIS
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I see. You were stalking Skandelion.

    I was here before Skandelion but not on staff. Skandelion was.

    So you followed Skandelion here, wanting to stalk and to harass Skandelion, but when he left you stalked and harassed DHK (who was on staff) when he left for mission opportunities you switched to stalking and harassing me (as I became a moderator and dared disagree with you).

    What many may not know is you have harassed me, stalked me, and slandered me for years (about the time DHK left). It got so bad I had to block your phone number because you called having a tantrum about an issue with some post, I hung up of course (ultimately that was my fault as I should have been more careful about my personal information).

    This makes sense given your meltdown on the Christian Board when caught by the Administration in making false accusations. If I recall, you were ultimately banned from that forum for harassing and lying about members.

    But if I ever leave I know you'll just pick another target for your agenda. That is your character (your proven character on this and other forums). So I'm here for the long haul.

    At least now I know why you targeted me. I always wondered. It is because I disagree with you and am on staff. That is what the three of us who have been stalked by you have in common (we don't share the same theology but we all disagreed with you).
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Where did God take Enoch? Asked and answered. Abraham's bosom.
    Spiritually dead only means to be separated from God due to unholiness. What I said.
    Being placed spiritually into Christ makes us spiritually alive. What I said.
    Since we are made sinners, we start out in a separated from God sinful state.
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    @InTheLight

    It looks as if you do not want a biblical answer.
    23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    Do you understand the magnitude of this verse?

    You suggest I have not offered scripture?
    The text begins with an account of the creation, with God’s creative work culminating in His planting of a garden in Eden. The man and woman were to reside there and, from that central place, fulfill their creational mandate (Genesis 1:1-2:15). More importantly, this garden was created as a sanctuary: the appointed place where God would meet with His image-bearers. As the location where God first dwelled in relation to His creation, Eden was the first expression of sacred space.

    1. Eden as the Mountain of God

    The title, “mountain of God,” is most often associated with Mount Horeb (Mount Sinai) where Moses first encountered God in the burning bush and later received the covenant on behalf of the sons of Israel (Exodus 3:1-2, 24:1-13; cf. 1 Kings 19:1-8). In this usage the emphasis isn’t on God’s habitation as such, but rather the place where God meets with men; the place where the divine and human are brought together (cf. Genesis 22:14).

    This same connotation is carried forward and further developed in the Bible’s treatment of Mount Zion as the site of the temple in Jerusalem. It was there that the sons of Israel met with Yahweh, and the prophets spoke of the day when all the nations would join them. The point of that imagery is not that the whole world would literally journey to Jerusalem, but that, in the fulfillment to come, all the nations would become worshippers of the true and living God (Isaiah 66:20; Jeremiah 3:17; Micah 4:1-2). Jerusalem is so closely linked with the “mount of God” that the terms are sometimes used synonymously (ref. Isaiah 37:32, 66:20; Daniel 9:16; Joel 2:32, 3:17; Zechariah 8:3).

    There are 32 verses here in just these two or three paragraphs. Did you look them up?
     
  15. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Eden was more than just a garden. I agree with you that it was created as a sanctuary where God would meet with His image-bearers. It actually is a beautiful picture. Sin had not yet entered the world. Everything God created was good and perfect. Adam and Eve had a form of fellowship with God that we cannot truly comprehend. The creation narrative never tells us how long this perfect state lasted. I suppose that does not really matter. What does matter is that sin did enter the world and the curse followed immediately after. What does matter is that the last Adam (the seed of the woman) has restored what Adam and Eve enjoyed in the Garden. I am looking forward to that day when this present age ends and we will be in a truly sacred place.
     
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  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    @InTheLight,
    Here is a large grouping of biblical dots to connect. Look up each verse

    c. Zion as a Messianic Concept

    Inasmuch as the concept of Zion enfolds all of the Bible’s kingdom themes, it’s not surprising that it is also richly messianic. Zion was the seat of both Yahweh’s dominion and that of His regal son-king. All of the glories of the Israelite kingdom were epitomized in Zion and the Lord’s sanctuary as its central feature. Jerusalem was the city where the Great King was enthroned; it was, in that sense, the “holy ground” that bridged heaven and earth. And as Zion symbolized the kingdom of Israel, so that kingdom was itself a prefiguration of its eschatological counterpart to be inaugurated by Yahweh’s Servant/Messiah. Like its typological predecessor, the messianic kingdom was to have its focal point in Zion.

    1) Zion’s connection with Old Testament messianism derives foundationally from their mutual association with David and the Davidic Covenant. David conquered Jerusalem in order to make it the capital of his kingdom and the site of the central sanctuary.

    By bringing the ark to Jerusalem David symbolically enthroned Yahweh on Mount Zion, subsequently fulfilling that symbolism by securing the fullness of the physical kingdom covenanted to Abraham (2 Samuel 6-8). In its glory as the political and spiritual capital of God’s covenant kingdom, Zion was indeed the city of David.
    David was responsible for bringing the Israelite expression of the kingdom to its height of power and extension, and it was in connection with his kingship that the Lord promised him a son in whom his dynastic house and kingdom (which were to be, in their fulfillment, synonymous with Yahweh’s house and kingdom) would be established forever.

    Thus the Scripture’s intimate association of messianism with David and the Davidic Covenant necessarily drew in the theme of Zion as well. If Zion was the city of David from which he ruled Yahweh’s kingdom, then it followed that the covenanted Son of David would also be enthroned in and reign from Zion (ref. Psalm 2, 110; cf. Micah 4:1-8 with 5:1-4).

    2) The Son of David was appointed to establish and rule over Yahweh’s house and kingdom forever, and this implied the establishment of Zion as the everlasting focal point of that kingdom. More specifically, the Scripture indicated that Messiah would establish the kingdom through His personal triumph over God’s enemies. By His victory He would deliver the captive people and restore them to their covenant Lord and Father.

    Messiah’s work was to be one of comprehensive renewal and recovery, and this promise accordingly had a central thread in Zion’s future glorification.

    The Son of David would rule over Yahweh’s kingdom from His throne in the midst of glorified Zion. This theme is prominent in Isaiah’s prophecy (cf. in context 28:14-16, 40:1-10, 46:12-13, 51:1-11, 52:1-9, 59:1-60:14, 62:1-12, 66:1-13), but weaves throughout the prophetic literature (cf. Psalm 87, 102:11-22, 110:1-10; Jeremiah 3:6-17, 31:1-40; Joel 2:23-32; Micah 4:1-5:5; Zechariah 9:9-17).
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Well Yes that is exactly right Reformed.

    Every type in the OT. points forward and is summed up In The person and work of The King, and His kingdom spreading worldwide.
    The prophets spoke of a King , Priest, a Prophet greater than Moses.

    The verse in Hebrews 9;23 is massive as it is set in a discussion of the heart of the OT. Sacrificial system, all the workings of the tabernacle which give way to the true tabernacle.
    It, of course, culminates in the rule and reign of the Covenant Son, and us in saving union with Him;
    23 It was, therefore, necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


    and then this;
    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

    20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

    21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

    22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

    24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
     
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  18. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    You said the "ology of [sacred space] was scattered throughout the Bible."

    I looked up the verses you provided from the New Testament. Oh, wait a minute, there were none from the New Testament.

    It looks like you are trying to say that man's ability to meet with God on some physical ground (sacred space) will someday be restored. Sure, I agree. I don't think that is God's eternal plan of redemption, though. Jesus didn't die on the cross so we could meet with God in a sacred space. That ability is a by-product of the plan.


    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
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  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Paul didn't start out dead. Romans 7:9. He said he was alive until the commandment came This confirms Children are born spiritually alive Innocent.
    MB
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I dont care for this use of the phrase "sacred space" but God did send His Son to restore fellowship with His special creation.
     
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