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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Feb 17, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. But I am also not a pagan.

    You are confused @Particular (or dishonest, I'll go with the former). I said that God makes us new creations in Christ rather than returns us to an original state as Adam. I know that you prefer to beleive that God makes us like Adam was in the Garden of Eden, but that is not the Bible. That is paganism. The Bible says specifically that God makes us new creations in Christ (your disagreement is with God, not me).

    The difference between you and I is that believe that Jesus was right that man must be born again and born of the Spirit (John 3). I also believe that we are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5), and that God puts His Spirit in us (Romans 8; Ezekiel 36).

    Have you taken as much time to read Scripture as you have to study the theories of men?
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I see Jesus as having a human nature. When read the Bible I see two "natures" - the "flesh" and the "spirit". I do not see where you find this "sin nature". What verse are you speaking of?
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you hold to original Sin, and the Virgin birth, as both are biblical doctrines!
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The one that follows after the nature of satan, and of fallen adam!
    You see us then as essential born in innocent state, and that we could choose to remain sinless, as Jesus himself was able to do? So not seen as guilty sinners until we choose to do sin?
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do hold to biblical doctrines, to include that death entered the world through Adam's sin and spread to all men because all have sinned ("original sin") and that Jesus was born of Mary who was a virgin.

    The issue is not these things but the ideas you have added to Scripture.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel, @Yeshua1 , that I believe men must be born again rather than restored to Adam's original state. I believe the Bible.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    did Jesus have to be born in that way, in order to avoid having a sin nature?
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Man is born a sinner, has a sin nature that is enemy against God, and that Jesus, when we become born again, gives back to us that spiritual aspect lost by us in fall of Adam!
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. Jesus is without sin because Jesus is God. The virgin birth is significant (which if you have studied ANE belief you'd realize this) and it is definitely a proof of Christ's devinity (like other things in Scripture) but the idea that sin is passed on biologically is Greek paganism (and Gnostic), not Christian.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know what you believe. I wish you believe the Bible more than other things, but that's OK. You know what is most important.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If Jesus would have came thru sexual intercourse between Mary and Joseph, he would have been unqualified as messiah, as his Humanity would have been sinful and corrupted as ours all were!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the truth of us being sinners by both birth nature and birth choices is right there in bible, from Genesis thru Revelation!
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sure. We are born as natural men (as Adam).
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sorry, I have to stick with Scriptures here.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Yeshua1

    Here is the issue:

    Scripture is the "data". It is where we start and what affirms our views.

    You say something that is not taught by Scripture. That is fine. It may very well be true.

    BUT you have to explain your logic and reasoning (how you get from Scripture to your theories).

    You have but you have done so via a formal logical fallacy.

    Does this mean your conclusion is wrong? No. Does it mean your conclusion is extra-biblical and illogical? Yes.

    From history we all know that you are going to ignore Scripture and ignore the fact that you have relied on faulty logic. We all know you are just going to say the same thing over and over again, offering Scripture that does not prove your point if we are lucky, and then say "correct?". That is what you have been doing for years and there is no indication that it will change.

    But know that your view is something that is not actually taught by Scripture. It is something that you arrived at via a logical fallacy. While it may be true, it is actually not a view you should logically or biblically hold.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thread is closed due to length. Please feel free to begin another thread to continue the discussion.
     
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