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Featured Spiritual Truth and Doctrine II: The Meaning of Reconciliation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Aaron, May 18, 2022.

  1. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you are saying and for the most part agree.

    God made it possible for all to be saved through Christ Jesus but not all will be saved. God was reconciling the world to Himself through His Son. What I am saying is that reconciliation does not bring about salvation rather it is because we have trusted in His Son that we are saved and now have a right relationship with God.

    Aaron has put the cart before the horse so to speak.
     
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree with what you just said, that is the point I have been trying to make. Not doing it very well it would seem.:)
     
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  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I was very clear in my post. Unfortunately you have corrupted my words. God Bless
     
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    From Gods' perspective man is reconciled to Him through the death of His Son. From the perspective of man we are reconciled to God through our faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

    Man hears and believes the gospel, confesses that Christ Jesus is Lord and God saves him because of that confession. Because the man is saved he now is reconciled, is in a right relationship, with God.
    We are saved so we can have a right relationship with God, we do not have a right relationship with God so that can be saved.
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    No, Adam didn't have eternal life, but he was good and upright, and was the son God. Luke 3:38 .

    He was alive and not bound for hell.

    But it doesn't much matter what you think about what our being in Adam means, and how it foreshadows our being in Christ.

    To be reconciled means to be brought into a right relationship. It doesn't matter if you think of it as a first meeting or a reunion. We are called lost sheep, seeming to imply that we were originally in the fold. It is said we have gone astray, seeming to imply we were originally on track.

    There is the parable of the Prodigal Son, the Lost Coin, the Ten Virgins (which, by the way, justifies the marriage reference).

    If we were restored to a right relationship with God by the death of one who cannot die ( unlike Adam ) how much more of a relationship it is by virtue of Who it was that died, yet cannot die.

    Not merely restored to our original state, that is not merely remade in His image, like Adam, but begotten of God. True sons, partakers of the Divine Nature, eternal. Incorruptible. Unable to fall.
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You must abandon the notion that the unsaved are reconciled. You render the blood of the Cross ineffectual. There is no act of God that does not yield the intended fruit.

    You believe in Limited Atonement, you just make man the limiter.

    Christ did not die to give man sovereignty in salvation.
     
  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You must start dealing with the text of the bible. You may not like what the bible says but you have to accept what it says.

    Man does not save himself, rather God saves man because they fulfill the condition that God has set for salvation. Faith in His Son.
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Correct.

    Correct.

    IOW, because there's something good in them.

    Incorrect.
     
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  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Just wanted to first say this is an excellent response, Silverhair. Every point correlated to Scripture.

    The "we" are those who have been saved. In other words, "If we can be placed in such a dire situation by a mere man, how much more can the Son of God correct that condition?"

    This is where I would have to disagree, Silverhair: I don't view Reconciliation to be applied to those who are still lost. You say yourself, "Christ Jesus died for sinners so that we could be reconciled to God."

    So that men could be reconciled, not that all men have been reconciled. You also end your post with, "And why would it be necessary for Paul to implore people to be reconciled to God?"

    I agree: Paul is beseeching men to be reconciled because they have not been reconciled.


    Correct, making the means of reconciliation to God possible, just as He was making it possible for men to have eternal/everlasting life. He had to die so that men could be reconciled through Eternal Union with God.


    Yes. What is interesting to note is that this charge is laid upon those of the Old Testament that were declared righteous/justified. Even among them, there was not a single man righteous. No, not one.

    Therein lies the magnitude of the Cross: what Christ came to do was something He (God) had never done before.


    I agree wholeheartedly.


    I am having an issue with the Forum: it isn't letting me post, saying it's over 10,000 words when I know it isn't, lol. So going to try a smaller portion than I have been trying.


    Continued...
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And I take that position, that His salvation is made available to all men, and that the reason why men will not be saved is that by their own decision they reject Christ.

    Concerning the past Ages and Eras and Generations, men were justified in a temporal context, and if they were justified during their lifetimes they were what we might call "saved," and their eternal destinies secured, but—they died awaiting Eternal Redemption.

    Eternal Redemption was obtained by Christ through His Work. Eternal Redemption alone includes the eternal indwelling of God (John 14:15-23), the believer placed in Christ (Galatians 3:27; Acts 1:4-5; Acts 11:13-18), remission of sins on an eternal basis (Hebrews 10:14), and regeneration (John 3:9-16).

    When He accomplishes those things in us we are reconciled. Thus it is proper to say "reconciliation is salvation."

    When Paul beseeched men to be reconciled, he is beseeching them to be saved:


    2 Corinthians 5:17-21 King James Version

    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



    Those who are reconciled are new creatures. We are something that men were not in the Old Testament, and something that is new to Creation.

    We "reconcile" men to God in our ministry, understanding that we ourselves do not "save" men, but that God works through us as He worked through Christ. God is the Reconciler. He is the Author and Finisher (Completer) of faith. Men cannot have faith apart from God's intervention, and in this Age that intervention is by means of the Ministry of the Comforter:


    John 16:7-9 King James Version

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



    The Comforter (the Spirit of grace and truth) is the One that brings conviction in the heart of the natural man. It is within that ministry that natural men can perceive the spiritual things of God, namely the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the point of 1 Corinthians 1:18 all the way through to 1 Corinthians Chapter 2 (meaning the whole Chapter). That God is now revealing the Mystery of the Gospel to men through the Holy Spirit in the Ministry of Comforter.

    When Paul quotes ...


    1 Corinthians 2:9 King James Version

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.



    ... he is saying that men did not understand the mystery that he and his fellow ministers are preaching. And we can look back and see that. We see it even in Christ's ministry as the people react to His teaching based on the expectation of a temporal kingdom. That is why Peter tries to stop the Cross from happening: because he simply doesn't realize the necessity of the Cross.


    Correct. I believe this is a reference to eternal damnation. While it is true (meaning the view I take from my own studies) that we will not go through the wrath of the Tribulation (which is a judgment for Israel), ultimately "wrath" speaks of eternal judment.


    Again, I agree completely.

    This is a great verse to cross-reference on the issue of being enemies. We were enemies prior to being in Christ, but being reconciled we are now sons of GOd.

    Those who are not yet reconciled are still enemies:


    Romans 11:27-29 King James Version

    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.



    This is a reference to Israel. They are enemies because they have rejected Christ on a national basis (He came unto His Own, and His Own received Him not).

    However, Paul makes it clear there is a future fulfillment of God's promises in regards to Israel on a national basis.


    1 Corinthians 15:25
    For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    Philippians 3:18
    (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

    Colossians 1:21
    And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

    Hebrews 1:13
    But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    Hebrews 10:13
    From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.



    Until one is reconciled to God through Eternal Redemption they remain the enemies of God.

    That doesn't mean that God does not have mercy on His enemies, lol. Does He not instruct that the will of God is that we love our enemies? Did God not so love the world that He sent His Son to die, that we might be reconciled?


    Continued...
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Agreed. Universal salvation is false doctrine.


    Correct. It is not a "work" to accept a gift, else it is no longer a gift, but a payment.


    So does Peter:


    Acts 11:17-18 King James Version

    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



    Cornelius was saved by the words Peter preached unto him:


    11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.


    12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:


    13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;


    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.



    Cornelius was eternally indwelt and baptized into Christ:


    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.



    Christ is the Baptizer (Matthew 3:11-12).

    The natural man cannot be saved unless God intervenes in his dead condition. And that is what He does. He sent Peter, Peter preached the Gospel, but God is the One that initiated Cornelius' salvation. He is the One that baptized Cornelius with the Holy Ghost. He is the One that granted repentance unto life.

    And He did this through the preaching of the Gospel through a man that once rejected the Gospel (Matthew 16:20-23).


    Correct, showing that not all men have been reconciled through God being in Christ reconciling the world.


    Exactly.

    The means of relationship with God under the Law was through obedience to the revelation provided through the Law. It showed men they were sinners and that because they would do nothing but sin they would continually have to offer up sacrifice for that sin. Only through Christ's righteousness being imputed to men could man have remission of sins on an eternal basis. That is what God promised in the Old Testament, and that is what He did (Hebrews 10:14-18).


    I have to disagree here again: men are not reconciled until they are in Christ. Only when men have been eternally redeemed are they reconciled.

    It's really the opposite, Silverhair: no man is saved until he is reconciled. That is why Paul beseeched men to be reconciled.


    Precisely. Maybe I'm missing something here, lol. I'll just ask, do you think all men have been reconciled because "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself," or that it is not until men place faith in Christ that they are reconciled?

    Again, great response.


    God bless.
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure how I corrupted your words. You said I was trying to say something I didn't, and I addressed that.

    You said:


    You say my understanding is taking the passage out of context, and nothing you say shows this. I have never implied that natural men can receive or perceive the spiritual things of God (the clear statement of Paul) and I have always ascribed the ability to perceive and receive to the Comforter.

    I agree that it is believers being instructed as though they are carnal, and I have never said anything that implies natural man can understand unless God enlightens their minds.

    If you are trying to say natural man can receive and perceive spiritual things, then I disagree. They cannot unless God is the One making the truth known to them.

    Natural man has absolutely zero ability to understand. He does not have an inherent ability. God must enlighten him. And while we do see the testimony of Creation being one of the ways God enlightens, man, keep in mind that no man was eternally redeemed through the testimony of Creation, nor will be during their lifetime. It is only when the Comforter came down from Heaven in the specific New Covenant role as Comforter that He began to enlighten men specifically to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    And it is only through believing on Jesus Christ that men can be eternally redeemed while they are still alive on this earth. There is no other way. And temporal justification is not a means of eternal redemption, though I do believe the eternal destinies of the Old Testament Saints were secured by that justification. It must be contrasted with Eternal Justification which occurs only for those who believe on Christ and place faith in Him as the risen Savior.

    And that belief and faith is a result of God's intervention, not something the natural man can achieve through an inherent ability.


    God bless.
     
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Aaron you still do not deal with the text of the bible. Correct. As long as you continue to ignore what the bible says you will remain someone that lives on the milk of the word.
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    LOL. I'm practically the only one in this thread who IS dealing with the text. You just don't like where it's taking you.

    Christ's eternal priesthood is very hard to understand, which is why the apostle could not say much about Melchizedek to the Hebrews.

    Regardless, you aren't even obeying the rules of grammar in your notions about Romans 5:10.

    Generally, when we speak of salvation, we mean Redemption. That which has purged our sins and purchased us.

    The Bible uses the word saved in that sense too, but not exclusively. It uses the term to mean preservation, too. And certainly that is the sense in Romans 5:10. In another place, Paul says we are saved by hope.

    What is the act that purged our sins and purchased us?
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    From Gods' perspective man is reconciled to Him through the death of His Son. From the perspective of man we are reconciled to God through our faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

    1} I don't view Reconciliation to be applied to those who are still lost.

    As I had said, the sacrifices of the OT foreshadowed the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. The sacrifices allowed for a return to a peaceful relationship with God. This is what we see in the death of the Son. Col 1:20 ...having made peace through the blood of His cross. Did the Son not die for the sins of the world? 1Jn_2:2 ...but also for those of the whole world.



    2} “...making the means of reconciliation to God possible,”

    If God had dealt with the sin of man as His justice requires then all men would be doomed. But He chose to restore peace between us via the cross, He restored that relationship not man. As you pointed out I had said "Christ Jesus died for sinners so that we could be reconciled to God."


    After reading through your posts I see that we are in agreement on many points. Where we differ is in understanding of reconciliation. I view Col 1:20 one way and you another, God reconciled the world to Himself through the death of His Son. When 1Jn 2:2 tells me that Christ died for the sins of all that is what it means to me. The death of the Son made it possible for all to be saved because the Father viewed the sins of all covered. So from His perspective all were reconciled to Him, His wrath had been averted, but man has to accept and trust in the Son before they are saved. From the perspective of man He is only reconciled with the Father when he trusts in the Son.

    For me this is the only way that Col 1:20 makes any sense. We are told “reconcile all things” not some things as the view that it only applies to those that are saved would require.
     
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Rom 5:10
    For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
    much more,
    having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    So what rules of grammar am I not following? Are you operating under a special set.

    Aaron I see that it is not the text of the bible that you believe but rather your calvinism. You are reading into the text what you need to see so that you can preserve your errant view.
    The act that purged our sins is the atonement, the Son's death on the cross. His death was sufficient to cover the sins of all mankind but unless you are a universalist you have to agree that only those that trust in the Son are actually saved.

    You are under this misunderstanding that if someone does not use the correct calvinist words in the right order then they do not understand scripture. You just need to start trusting more of what the bible says and less of what your calvinism teaches you.
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    This is true.

    So what is the state of the man whose sins are covered? Hint: It's in Romans 4 .
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    There is a vast distance between the Son paying the sin debt of the whole world and someone having their sins covered.
    HINT Look at who was the propitiation for sins:
    1Jn_2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
    1Jn_4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

    I am well aware of whose sins were covered. Those that believe. The promise given to Abraham was to be realized through faith.
    Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

    Salvation is the gift of God that only those that believe in the Son receive. Which lines up with what Rom 4 tells us, the promise that was given to Abraham is received through faith not by works so no one can boast.
    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    So as the bible tells us the Son paid for the sins of the whole world but only those that trust in the Son for salvation will receive the gift of God, eternal life.
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Agreed. One is true and the other, as you understand it, is not.

    And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for [the Jews] only but also for the [Gentiles]. This meaning is clearly illuminated in Romans 11, as I've already cited.


    As you yourself said...
    You just said, only the sins of those who believe are covered.
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I think there is great importance to how we view man's original state in Adam. If one believes he was in a "spiritual union" with God, lost that in the Fall, and now we're trying to get back what we once had—it has great impact on how you interpret the entire Bible. It is ironic that many that hold to that view are usually dogmatic that eternal salvation cannot be lost. But that is precisely what that view teaches.

    As far as Adam being bound for Hell, there are two ways to look at that: first, if Adam is among the elect, no, there was never a chance of him ending up in Hell, and secondly, he was always going to sin, so in that sense he was headed to Hell just everyone else.

    All men are headed for Hell, it is only God's grace and mercy that redirects man's eternal destiny. This would be just as true of Adam as it is of all men. God knew he would sin, and God knew what the remedy for that sin is.


    I think that's a great way to put it.

    Man has enjoyed relationship with God, but I see a need to distinguish between our becoming new creatures in Christ and that relationship to be far different even from the direct, physical relationship Adam and Eve enjoyed. This too shapes one's understanding of Scripture. Again, if the concept of "righting a relationship to a former condition" is in view, it overlooks the magnitude of what Christ has done for us.


    Agreed. Though I would point out that there were those who were not of His sheep (John 10:26).


    I look at it as a reference to the elect, and do not see it making sheep out all who are lost. I think it is more a reference to those within God's foreknowledge who are among the elect. Those who openly reject the will of God are not sheep, but goats.


    And I think this might be the point @Silverhair has a focus on. When were we originally on track? In Adam? Or when we were conceived.

    I take the position that when men are conceived they have not inherited a disease from their parents, but that they will sin because they have no nature that would prevent it.

    So man sinning isn't a result of man having sin, it is a result of man—not having God.

    Therefore, as you have put it, we are brought into a "right relationship" with God in Reconciliation. This relationship far exceeds relationship previously enjoyed by men, and this includes Adam (who actually walked in the presence of God in daily communion).


    Well, one of the things which makes my view a little (or a lot) different from most is that I look at Christ's ministry to Israel (and those are the only lost sheep He was sent to, Matthew 10:6; Matthew 15:24) worked within the revelation provided to men at that point, meaning He ministered within the Law, Prophets, and Psalms that they had.

    Because of that, the first application of His teaching is directed to conditions within the Kingdom they awaited, which was a physical Kingdom.

    If we try to place an eternal context into all of them there are some problems that arise. The parable of the talents would suggest money will be in use in the Eternal State. I doubt that just a little bit, lol. The Ten Virgins has an application, in my opinion, to Israel prior to Christ's first coming. It is when He came the first time that judgment fell on those who were not ready. It also has application to Israel now. It very likely will have application to Israel in the Millennial Kingdom.

    Christ is the Ruler that has gone into a far Kingdom to await His kingdom.


    And it is the use of the word restored that would suggest we are getting back something we once had, and I don't see that as the case.

    No man had "life" prior to Christ coming. Not until the Living Bread came down from Heaven did men begin to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, or in other words—believe in His death, burial, and Resurrection (the Gospel of Christ).

    Now that The Faith has come, we are no longer under the schoolteacher.


    Precisely.


    Exactly.


    God bless.
     
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