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Featured Spiritual Union or Eternal life

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2012.

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  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    As usual, you take your presupposition, and then twist scripture to agree with it. The scriptures clearly show persons who did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, and yet who believed in and PLEASED God. Cornelius is the best example, we know he did not have the Holy Spirit and he was not saved, yet God recognized his good works and sent an angel to appear to him. We know from Peter's own words that Cornelius was not saved at this time, neither did he have the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    Verse 14 tells us that Cornelius was not saved when the angel appeared to him, yet he had faith in God and God was pleased with his works of righteousness. Verse 17 tells us Cornelius received the Spirit AFTER he first believed.

    Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    Peter himself said that Cornelius worked righteousness. There goes your doctrine of Total Depravity right there. Cornelius was not saved at this point of time and did not have the indwelling Spirit.

    But there is much more proof than that, the disciples all believed on Jesus, yet they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead.

    Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    Faith pleases God, and all of the disciples except Judas believed on Jesus after his first miracle, but none of the disciples had the indwelling Holy Spirit until the 20th chapter of John.

    Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    The disciples are not the only persons who believed on Jesus without the indwelling Holy Spirit, thousands of Jews (and non Jews) believed on him. Yet none of these believers received the indwelling Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead.

    Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    The scriptures tell us of many Jews (and others like the Samaritans) who believed on Jesus, yet none of these persons had the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    Scripture refutes your view. It is after a person believes (which pleases God) that they receive the Spirit, not before.

    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Spirit AFTER first believing on Jesus.

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    This verse directly tells us that a person is not sealed by the Holy Spirit until after they believe.

    Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Paul was no Calvinist, Paul believed a person received the Holy Spirit after or SINCE they believed.

    Men have the ability to believe on Jesus, and if they do they receive the Holy Spirit. This is exactly what Peter told those who heard him preach.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    No one is justified, no one receives remission of sins until they believe on Jesus. Peter told these Jews to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and AFTERWARD they would receive the Spirit. Peter and the disciples never baptized any man unless they first believed on Jesus.

    Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
    37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Peter told the Jews at Pentacost they must be baptized before they would receive the Holy Ghost, and we know that the disciples would only baptize those who first believed.

    You need to study the scriptures a little more, they absolutely refute your view. These are just a few of many examples that refute you.
     
    #21 Winman, Nov 17, 2012
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  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    If Cornelius was saved he didn't need Peter.
    If Cornelius was regenerated he didn't need Peter.
    Cornelius needed Peter to hear the gospel in order that he might be saved, and then be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I don't see what is difficult about that to understand unless you are a hyper-Calvinist who believes that he was first regenerated and then saved when Peter came along. But that is not what I believe, and I don't believe the Scriptures teach either.
     
    #22 DHK, Nov 17, 2012
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Is that why you are incapable of dealing with them but simply choose to PIT scripture against scripture? That is your norm isn't it when you can't honestly deal with scripture in its context?

    1. The term "saved" covers more than mere regeneration but also covers the life of a believer.

    2. He was already a believer as his alms and prayers and testimony demonstrate.

    3. Peter confirmed that the Old Testament Gospel he believed in concerning remission of sins by faith in the promised Christ was Jesus of Nazereth (Acts 10:43.

    4. What was received were the GIFTS of the Spirit not the indwelling Spirit.



    No, it just demonstrates you don't understand a thing about Corneilus. Peter also said that God had already "cleansed" and "accepted" Cornelious:

    2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway......What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.......35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him......



    [/QUOTE]

    Did you forget John 14:17 where Jesus told the same disciples that the Holy Spirit was already "with" them? A little inconvenient truth? He indwelt believers already as INDIVIDUALS but as the NEW HOUSE OF GOD he would indwell them corporately as a new institutional body of baptized believers and "temple" of God (1 Cor. 3:16).


    The Holy Spirit was "with" them prior to when Jesus breathed on them as John 14:17 proves:

    Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    So which is it? Was he already "with" them in John 14 or not until Jesus breathed on him?

    The Holy Spirit indwelt them as individuals but as the New Temple, the Church the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost to indwell them. Go back to my OP and learn the difference between the kind of temple in 1 Cor. 3:16 IN ITS CONTEXT and the temple in 1 Cor. 6:17 IN ITS CONTEXT and you might learn something but I doubt it.

    The promise in John 7 refers to the the giving of the Spirit on Pentecost as a CORPORATE temple/church not individuals. Study the background of this passage in regard to where the water offering was poured out in this feast.



    There is the hearing by the ear and there is hearing that produces faith - subjective genitive. I know you don't like that but that is the way it is.

    Would you like to demonstrate the word "after" from the Greek text? I didn't think so. All three participles are Aorist showing identiical action. They heard, they believed, they were sealed.



    Both the verb and partciple are Aorist in tense showing identical action. That is why most Greek scholars translate it "when" you believed. However, what he was referring to was what was NOTICABLY VISIBLY absent and that was spiritual gifts (v. 6).

    The context shows the "gift" refers to what they both seen and heard not the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit but what Joel predicted in regard to SPIRITUAL GIFTS as Peter explained:

    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    In addition, this promise is condition upon WATER BAPTISM and are you now going to defend baptismal regeneration?????



    So who denied that? Not me! I believe that regeneration and gospel conversion are inseparable actions.



    Did you read what you said? They must be BAPTIZED IN WATER before they received this gift? Do you believe the indwelling Spirit of Christ is not received until AFTER water baptism? Do you believe regeneration occurs AFTER baptism or IN baptism. Pretty messed up if you do. So much for your proof texts.

    And this proves what? Does it prove regeneration occurs in baptism or after baptism? Don't think so!
     
    #23 The Biblicist, Nov 17, 2012
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  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    It is you that cannot honestly deal with scripture, I have showed you examples of persons who believed on Jesus that did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. The book of John literally tells us of hundreds, if not thousands of people who believed on Jesus, yet none of them had the indwelling Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead. You refuse to recognize this truth.

    To be saved means to be forgiven of sins, we are saved from our sins.

    Exactly, yet he did not have the Spirit yet.

    Yes, but they did not have the Spirit yet. Peter said they must repent and be baptized, and AFTERWARD would receive the Spirit. Plain as day.

    The scriptures do not say this, this is your invention.

    Cornelius was not saved, the angel told Cornelius to send for Peter by whom he and his family would hear words and be saved. You are directly contradicting scripture, the scriptures DO NOT say he was already saved. If he was already saved, he had no need to hear words whereby he would be saved. Nonsensical.

    Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

    I am completely aware of this scripture. Jesus did tell them the Spirit was with them, but the Spirit would not be IN THEM (indwelling) until after he went away and sent the Spirit.

    Jhn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    The disciples did not have the indwelling Spirit at this time, Jesus told the disciples he would send the Comforter who "shall be" (future tense) IN THEM.

    The disciples did not receive the indwelling Spirit until Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22. There is a very distinct difference between the Spirit being with someone and being IN someone. No one had the indwelling Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead.

    The Spirit was WITH THEM, but not IN THEM. You are refuting your view, not proving it. No one had the indwelling Holy Spirit until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, yet many believed on Jesus before this. I could literally give you dozens of examples.

    Pure invention, the scriptures clearly tell us believers had not received the indwelling Spirit yet.

    Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    You just make this stuff up as you go along don't you? John 7:39 simply tells us that believers had not received the Holy Spirit yet. It does not mention one word about special gifts, or any of this other nonsense you are saying. It simply says, "for the Holy Ghost was not yet given". You read into scripture what you WANT it to say, not what it truly says.

    And there is such thing as false teaching too.

    I don't know Greek, so I have no way to know if your argument is correct. Many Greek scholars disagree on scripture, the fact that you may or may not know Greek (I doubt you know much), does not necessarily make you correct. Knowing a little Greek may give you bragging rights, but it doesn't prove a thing and doesn't make you correct. The English refutes you.

    I have no way to know if this is correct, I do not know Greek.

    I do not believe in baptismal regeneration. My argument is that Peter would only baptize a believer as I showed in Acts 8. So when Peter told these Jews to "repent" he was speaking of believing on Jesus. After they believed on Jesus Peter promised they would receive the Spirit. I also showed you much scripture from Paul that shows the Spirit was received AFTER first believing. It is you that ignores much scripture, not me.

    I guess when you can't win a debate honestly you resort to misrepresenting your opponent?? You just prove you know you are losing.

    I said no such thing about a person having to be baptized to receive the Spirit, show where I ever said that.

    You must resort to dishonesty, you show your true character.
     
    #24 Winman, Nov 18, 2012
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  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You quoted Acts 2:38 to prove your point did you not? Does not the text also include baptism as a prerequisite as well? Hence, if the promise here is the indwelling Spirit is it not equally conditioned upon water baptism as much as repentance?

    Did not you say the following words?

    Peter told these Jews to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and AFTERWARD they would receive the Spirit. - Winman

    So why charge me with dishonesty and say that is a reflection on my character when you are the one who chose the text and you are the one who clearly says that Peter taught that AFTER baptism they would receive the Spirit! Are you not clearly making a false charge?

    I simply pointed out your own words and how is that dishonest? If you don't believe baptism precedes the indwelling Spirit then don't use Acts 2:38 as a proof text for your point and don' say that the indwelling Spirit was taught by Peter to come "AFTERWARD" in connection with baptism! Those are your words not mine!

    You better go study the word "salvation" and "saved' as used in scripture because it cannot possibly be restricted to gospel conversion. Such is the case with Cornelious as God said he had already CLEANSED him and Peter recognized him as a believer in the Old Testament gospel of the coming Christ but He needed to know that He had came and it was Jesus just as Apollos was a believer in the OT gospel and did not know Jesus had fulfilled it.

    Luke says that "on" the Gentiles the Spirit was "poured out" rather than any mention of indwelling by the Spirit and the pouring out is described by what they heard and saw in the spiritual GIFT of tongues:

    because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

    Before you start falsely charging others with deceit and a bad character you better look in the mirror because I merely referenced YOUR OWN WORDS and YOUR OWN PROOF TEXTS where baptism preceded the giving of the Holy Spirit. These texts do not refer to the indwelling presence but his empowerment in the form of spiritual gifts as in tongues UNLESS you want to CONTINUE to defend baptismal regeneration?
     
    #25 The Biblicist, Nov 18, 2012
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  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You WERE being dishonest, and you CONTINUE to be dishonest. I was simply quoting what Peter said in Acts 2. I in no way said I personally believe a person has to be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit. You know that very well, but continue to play your dishonest game of misrepresenting me. Obviously, when you know you are losing a debate, you try to smear your opponent.

    Do you really think anyone here at BB is fooled? Good luck on that, you simply reveal your REAL character (or lack of).

    No, you tried to dishonestly smear me.

    You are the one who needs to study, the book of John shows hundreds, if not thousands of persons who believed on Jesus, yet none of these persons received the indwelling Holy Spirit until after Jesus was crucified and rose again. You teach false doctrine.

    You have already been shown in John chapter 14 that the Spirit dwelled "with" the disciples, but the Holy Spirit did now dwell "in" the disciples or any other believer until after Jesus rose from the dead.

    If you want to continue to teach false doctrine, that is your choice, you will stand before God some day and give account for this false teaching.
     
    #26 Winman, Nov 18, 2012
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The only one who is being dishonest here is you! At the very minimum your words are misleading as these are your PERSONAL words and every one on this forum merely has to go back to your post and read them:

    Peter told these Jews to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and AFTERWARD they would receive the Spirit. - Winman

    You are not quoting anyone but summarizing in your own words. YOU said that "Peter told these Jews to repent AND be baptized....and AFTERWARD they would receive the Holy Spirit." These are YOUR words, YOUR sumarization and YOU place baptism into the equation WITH REPENTANCE and then YOU say that Peter taught that "AFTERWARD" - After what? After they "repent AND be baptized".

    Wigglle all you like. Try to shift the buck, lie all you like but it does not change YOUR OWN WORDS.

    Maybe you did not mean to say it that way, maybe it was a mistake on your part and if you had the chance to say it all over again you wouldn't BUT YOU DID!

    However, lets put YOUR WORDS aside and look at Peter's words. Even Peter's words demand that the reception of the Spirit occurs after water baptism according. REad them! The condition of the promise is based upon the prerequisites of repentance AND baptism just as YOUR OWN WORDS demand. He is not speaking of the indwelling Spirit but the manifest gifts of the Spirit as promised by Joel.

    Hence, whether YOUR WORDS or Peter's Words it makes no difference as water baptism precedes and is the prerequisite to receiving that promise of the Spirit. The only indwelling of the Spirit he can possibly be talking about is indwelling the CORPORATE TEMPLE as in 1 Cor. 3:16 - period! And that does require water baptism in to the church institution.
     
    #27 The Biblicist, Nov 18, 2012
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  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The best that Winman and others can do is PIT scripture against scripture. They must come up with a THIRD type of humanity that is neither "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" and that kind is only in the head of a heretic.
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Nov 18, 2012
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Wow, not only do you intentionally misrepresent me, you are not man enough to admit when you are wrong. I did not say I believe in baptismal regeneration, I simply said in my own words what Peter said. I even quoted the verse in my post.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Did Peter tells these Jews to repent AND BE BAPTIZED and then they would receive the Holy Ghost? Of course. You know it as well as I do. These were Peter's words, not mine. I was not teaching baptismal regeneration and you know it, but you intentionally and dishonestly tried to smear me and accuse me of that.

    And now you do not have the courage to admit your sin. WEENIE.

    You are the one wiggling like the snake you are.

    Maybe?? You know perfectly well I was not teaching baptismal regeneration, I was simply quoting Peter, and then paraphrasing him in my own words. My paraphrase was accurate.

    I do not believe Peter was teaching baptism was required to receive the Spirit, I believe Peter was simply commanding these persons to be baptized. But the point is, Peter and the other disciples would only baptize a person who had sincerely believed on Jesus, that is why I quoted Acts 8:37. So, although Peter did not use the actual word "believe" in Acts 2:38, we know he was telling these persons to believe, because no one receives remission of sins unless they believe, and the disciples would only baptize those who believed. That is the point I was making, and I think you understood that perfectly well. You simply did not like my argument and so tried to dishonestly smear me.

    That's your problem, the words of scripture make no difference to you. You simply believe your Calvinist theology even if it contradicts scripture. You prefer Calvinism over scripture, because scripture refutes Calvinism, that is what I have shown you. The scriptures show many people who all believed on Jesus long before they received the indwelling Spirit. The disciples (except Judas) believed on Jesus well over three years before Jesus breathed on them and they received the indwelling Spirit.

    You should listen to scripture and not the false teachings of Calvinism.

    That takes courage too.
     
    #29 Winman, Nov 19, 2012
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  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Whether you personally believe in baptismal regeneration or not is not the issue. It is not that I believe you believe in baptismal regeneration but your interpretation of this text supports it whether you believe it or not.

    Don't play politics! Who cares if you actually believe or don't believe in baptismal regeneration! That is not the point. The point is your explanation of Peter's statement demands water baptism PRECEDED this kind of reception of the Spirit as you bluntly and plainly state this reception of the Spirit came "AFTERWARDS"!!! Anyone capable of reading and understanding English can see that is precisely what you said:


    Peter told these Jews to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and AFTERWARD they would receive the Spirit. - Winman

    If the above words (your own summarization) are not clear enough look at your own admission as you plainly admit to it:

    What did you say? You said "OF COURSE"! Whether you believe or don't believe in baptismal regeneration does not matter but your interpretation of this text supports baptismal regeneration. What did YOU SAY? You said "OF COURSE!" Of course what? Of course "Peter tells these Jews to repent AND BE BAPTIZED and THEN they would receive the Holy Ghost." So stop your nonsense that you did not say and mean that baptism PRECEDES the promise of the Spirit! Whether or not you personally embrace the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is moot to my point. My point is that your interpretation of Acts 2:38 which is this verses teaches personal indwelling by the Holy Spirit which you admit comes AFTERWARDS - after what? After both repentance AND water baptism. If that is true, then regardless of what believe about baptismal regeneration does not change your interpretation of this text which supports that very doctrine you deny!



    Never said Acts 2:38 were your words! Never quoted Acts 2:38 and said they were your words. I quoted YOUR WORDS as YOUR WORDS! Now you even admit I was right and again I quote YOUR WORDS and what did YOU say? You said "OF COURSE."





    If you are teaching that the "promise" here is the personal individual indwelling of the Spirit then you are indeed teaching either baptismal regeneration OR baptism must precede reception of the indwelling Spirit and either way what is the difference? None!

    The fact is, that Peter is not teaching that individual indwelling of the Spirit requires repentance and baptism. He is referring to partaking of the promised gifts of the Spirit as spoken of by Joel due to the baptism in the Spirit of the New house of God - the Church which as a corporate temple was immersed in the Spirit of God on Pentecost and water baptism is required to enter into that new house of God as Acts 2:40 clearly demonstrates:

    "As many as received the word were BAPTIZED and ADDED UNTO them" - Acts 2:40
     
    #30 The Biblicist, Nov 19, 2012
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  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, Cornelius was a POST-Pentecostal man and therefore no one can deny that Romans 8:8-9 did not apply to Cornelius.

    All human beings are either "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" according to Paul's classification in Romans 8:8-9 and all human beings who are not "in the Spirit" are "NONE OF HIS" and all who are "in the flesh" CANNOT please God and yet Cornelius did PLEASE God. God expllicitly used the PRESENT TENSE when Peter was yet in Joppa and claimed that Cornelius was CLEANSED in God's sight. You cannot be CLEANSED in God's sight and still in sin. You cannot be CLEANSED in God's sight and not be justified by faith in the gospel. Corneilious and his house, like Apollos were born again Holy Spirit indwelt believers in the Old Testament gospel that still viewed the promised Christ as yet to come. Their lives were still outside the New Covenant way of service - the church and it is the salvation of their lives through service in the Lord's church that Cornelius was water baptized into the church (Apollos had scriptural baptism just didn't know that Jesus was the Christ and didn't know of the church as the Spirit baptized/accredited way of service as the new house of God).

    What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. - Acts 10:14

    What they received were the SPIRITUAL GIFTS or sign gifts as that would have been the only way Peter would have received them for water baptism as Peter asks - "Can ANY MAN forbid" before baptizing them in water.
     
    #31 The Biblicist, Nov 19, 2012
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Let us take a more comprehensive look at Corneilus and his household. God Himself describes them as follows:

    1. He is a "devout man" -Acts 10:2
    2. One that "feared God with all his house" -Acts 10:2
    3. Gave much alms -Acts 10:2
    4. Prayed to God ALWAY (prayed without ceasing) -Acts 10:2
    5. Addressed God as "Lord" and is acknowledge so by God -Acts 10:4
    6. His prayers are answered by God - Acts 10:4-5
    7. He is told by God that he needs a man to tell him "what thou oughtest to do" - Acts 10:5
    8. God hath cleansed him - Acts 10:14
    9. He is a "just" man - Acts 10;22
    10. He is of "good report" by others - Acts 10:22
    11. He fasts - Acts 10:30
    12, He is obedient to God - Acts 10:32-33
    13. He is to obey further things "commanded by God" - Acts 10:33
    14. He worked righteousness - Acts 10:34
    15. He is accepted by God - Acts 10:34

    Peter was then commanded by God to reveal to Cornelius that the Christ of the Old Testament Gospel (Acts 10:43) was the Christ John the Baptist had been sent to reveal and proclaim and whom the Apostles had received as that promised Christ. Hence, he was as saved as any Old Testament saint was who believed in the gospel prior to the cross. What he did not know was that Jesus was the Christ he had believed in and was looking for. What he did not know was that the Holy Spirit had come on Pentecost to indwell the New house of God. When cornelius and his house were baptized they were brought out of the Old Testament economy into the New Testament economy thus the salvation of their LIVES for the service of God through the New Testament church.


    A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
     
    #32 The Biblicist, Nov 19, 2012
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Jn. 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    This text has absolutely NOTHING to do with personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit which occurs at regeneration.

    The context is clear that this is about SPECIAL SERVICE not salvation ("AS my Father hath SENT ME, even so send I you").

    This is about the "keys of the kingdom" and the authority to grant forgiveness or refuse forgiveness by preaching God's terms of forgiveness through the gospel (see Luke 24:47).

    Lk. 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.



    Individually they already knew and had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit since the time they believed (Jn. 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.)

    1. The lost world CANNOT RECEIVE but they RECEIVED Him.
    2. The lost world CANNOT SEE but they they SAW HIM - by faith as he is invisible.
    3. The lost world cannot KNOW Him - but they KNEW Him.
    4. He dwelt in them INDIVIDUALLY but not COPORATELY as the New Temple of God.

    Now, lets consider what Christ asserts to be fact about their relationship with the Holy Spirit LONG BEFORE He breathed on them in John 20.

    1. They had individually RECEIVED the Spirit. When? When all believers both before and after Calvary did at the time of faith in the gospel (Eph. 1:13-14).

    2. They had SEEN the Holy Spirit. However, the Holy Spirit is spirit and no man can visibly see him. They saw him BY FAITH.

    3. They KNEW the Holy Spirit on an personal individual level because He dwelt with them on a personal individual level.

    They had the indwelling Spirit individually because they were capable of understanding and being taught by Jesus while the world was not:

    1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Mt. 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given    .

    Rev. 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

    The apostles were given ears to hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAITH unto them as members of the first church at Jerusalem.

    However, as a COPORATE body of baptized beleivers they had not received the indwelling Spirit which was promised and did occur on Pentecost.

    Hence, again the difference between their relationship to the Holy Spirit as INDIVIDUALS and as a COPORATE BODY OF BAPTIZED MEMBERS is the difference between the "temple" in 1 Cor. 3:16 and the "temple" in 1 Cor. 6:17.
     
    #33 The Biblicist, Nov 19, 2012
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  14. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    In 1 Cor. 2:14-3:3, Paul distinguishes among three kinds of people in relation to life in the Spirit: natural persons, spiritual persons and fleshly persons.

    A natural person is life "in the flesh" 1 Cor. 2:14.
    Flesh (Rom. 8:8) Through the flesh can mean the body, it is the learned independence which gives sin its opportunity.

    Eph. 2:1-3 This man is spiritually dead, separated from God. Living completely independent from God, the natural person sins as a matter of course. He has a soul that can think, feel and choose. A natural man acts apart from God who created him. His actions, reactions, habits, memories and responses are all controled by the flesh.

    A Spiritual man also has a body, soul and spirit. But he has been transformed from the natural person to a spiritual person by birth from above. The spiritual man now receives from the Spirit, not from the flesh. His mind is being renewed and transformed to agree with the Spirit. As a spiritual man chooses to walk according to the Spirit..his life will exhibit the fruits of the Spirit. (Gal. 5:22, 23).

    God has provided for us to experience personally what 2 Peter 1:3 describes of a spiritual person. HOWEVER..we do not all live in this level of maturity!

    Fleshly person..What most of us seem to forget is the one that is born from above but chooses life according to the flesh (1 Cor. 3:3). This person is spiritually alive in Christ and declared righteous by God; but that is where the similarity ends. This man is not led by the Spirit...he follows his flesh nature. This man has carnal thoughts. This man is the temple of God, but it is being defiled.

    Ignorance, lack of repentance and faith in God, and unresolved conflicts keep people from growing. We as born again believers have an enemy-Satan! the world! and our own flesh!

    So what is a Spirit filled life?
     
    #34 awaken, Nov 19, 2012
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is a lost man or the man Paul describes as "in the flesh" in Romans 8:8-9.


    You fail to make a very important distinction that Paul makes in Galatians 5:25. He distinguishes between he who "LIVES" in the Spirit versus he who "WALKS" in the Spirit and I quote:

    Gal. 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    Let me be clear here. You can be "in the Spirit" as described in Romans 8:9 and yet not be Spiritual as one can be spiritually alive or "LIVE IN THE SPIRIT" but not "WALK in the Spirit."

    In Romans 8:9 he is referring to merely being alive "in the Spirit" whereas in Romans 8:10-13 he is talking about WALKING in the Spirit and this is "he who is spiritual".

    Galatians 5:16-24 is addressed to those who LIVE in the Spirit but who at times walk AFTER (not "in") the flesh rather than walk in the Spirit.
     
    #35 The Biblicist, Nov 19, 2012
  16. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    So are you saying that you never give in to our flesh?
    All christians give into their fleshly desires..and sin in thought and deeds...but that does not mean they are not born from above.
     
    #36 awaken, Nov 19, 2012
  17. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    When we first become christians, we are not mature christians. No matter how mature you are, you can never be productive unless we are walking by faith in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    As immature Christians we walk more out of our flesh than we do our new born again spirit. We live out of what we know, and we do not know much about Spirit-filled life. Once we mature we learn to live more out of our spirit..but we still make wrong choices out of our flesh.

    Walking by the Spirit is a relationship...communication flows naturally from two that love each other.

    Paul defines in Gal. 5:16-18: "Walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry our the desires of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."
    This passage tells us what walking by the Spirit is not, but that is helpful because it gives two parameters within which we can freely live.
     
    #37 awaken, Nov 19, 2012
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I think you need to reread what I said because I never even suggested such a thing.

    What you are seeming to miss, is that the phrase "in the Spirit" has two complete different uses by Paul and that difference is known by context. (1) The saved condition - Rom. 8:8-9; or spiritual life as opposed to spiritual death; (2) Living a life under the leadership of the Spirit "walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16-25). Context determines which one is being referrred to.

    Galatians 5:25 includes BOTH. (1) "if we LIVE in the Spirit" - Spiritually ALIVE condition; then LET ALSO or IN ADDITION TO THAT (2) "walk in the Spirit" -PERFORMANCE under the guidance of the Spirit.

    However, no Christian WALKS in the Spirit at all times. Maturity is revealed by how characteristic such a walk becomes. The greater maturity the MORE of your life is characterized by walking in the Spirit. However, even the most spiritual mature sins - always sins by omission. It is the frequency of sins of commission that manifest the mature from the immature.
     
    #38 The Biblicist, Nov 19, 2012
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  19. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Well..unless I misunderstand you...Do we agree that we are still influencec by our flesh to make wrong choices? If so, then that is living by the flesh and not by the Spirit! But that does not change our nature that was born in us when we were born from above.
     
    #39 awaken, Nov 19, 2012
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    There is a clear problem here and I don't know what is the root of it but I know it is in your understanding of what I said.

    Born again spriitually alive people are not sinless people (1 Jn. 1:8) and therefore none live above sin at any time.

    The common experience is living between Romans 7:14-23 and Romans 8. To "walk IN THE SPIRIT" refers to that aspect of your life you are experiencing Romans 8 rather than Romans 7.

    Maturity is defined when your life is growing more like Romans 8 than Romans 7. All Christians are in various stages of spiritual maturity ("little children" vs. "young men" vs "fathers").

    However, the fact remains that Paul uses the phrase "in the Spirit" to define two very different things as Galatians 5:25 proves. In context where the contrast is with LOST humanity or those are at "enmity" with God and "CANNOT" be subject to the Law of God (Rom. 8:7-8) then it refers to those in contrast who are made spiritually alive instead of spiritually dead.

    In context where Christians and their WALK is in view, "after the flesh" versus "in the Spirit" or "after the Spirit" is a contrast between the Christian in Romans 7 versus Romans 8 or the struggle with indwelling sin. Indwelling sin by new birth is removed out of the "spirit" of man (which has been born again -Jn. 3:6) into the exterior flesh or "This body of death" (Rom. 7:24) meaning that the "law" of sin works from the EXTERNAL to the INTERNAL rather than before new birth worked from the INTERNAL to the EXTERNAL. The flesh or "after the flesh" walk simply means that sin takes advantage of the natural cravings of the fleshly nature to tempt our souls to follow after those cravings to excess which is sin.

    To walk "in the Spirit" is to follow the leadership of the indwelling Spirit AND new inward man which delights in the law of God to bring the cravings of the body into submission to God's Word. It is by the Spirit that we put to death the excessive natural cravings used by indwelling sin to tempt us. This battle only ends with physical death. No Christian ever completely conquerors indwelling sin in this present life those who think so are deceived (1 Jn. 1:8). However, this battle is not about entering heaven but about experiencing the present blessings of salvation and future position and rewards in heaven. The battle that determined our salvation was won for us by Christ on the cross and the victory is the resurrection.
     
    #40 The Biblicist, Nov 19, 2012
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