Standards in Church

Bill, it is absolutely needed to pray, read the bible and act civil to others in order to grow in Jesus. The particular things I mentioned should never be a rule of the church since I fully believe those are things which should be a conviction placed on the heart directly from God himself and not the pastor.

karen

 

Should the pastor ever preach about it, then? And in what context?

 

I am not a standards kind of guy. I believe one should preach the inerrant Word and believe it is true. The Holy Spirit will convict and grow people. However, every church has standards. Josh, even your group has standards. Do you allow a naked woman to sing a special?

As Baptists, we believe in the autonomy of the local church. Therefore, if a group of people agree to dress, sing, act, pray, it is up to that group of people. Now, they could be wrong in their decisions and/or methods. It is still their right as a local church. I am also quite to say that it is Christ's right to remove their lampstand if they persist in their wrong behavior. It is NOT legalism. Legalism is faith plus works equals salvation. It is impossible for a Christian to be a legalist. I am so sick of that word being thrown out by ignorant people to justify their own actions right or wrong.

 

Preach...wrong, that's exactly what context "standards" have been used here. To make our salvation "better" legalism is exactly the pefect word for all this. I don't need to justify my actions, there's nothing wrong with them and I'm not ashamed of anything I do.

Karen

 

Actually, it was because of 'lack of standards' that 8 members of my family were "excluded" from the ABA Mission we were members of. Without getting too deep, some of the things we had problems with were: one pastor smoked---another never allowed anyone to use their talents (he also thought nothing of going around in shorts & shirtless)---we were constantly ridiculed for things we believed in(modesty, etc)---we were blasted for not wanting to participate in the xmas party---having been led to believe he was KJV only, we found out differently. "Well, we never made any of these issues a test of true fellowship but apparently, it became such. When the 'mother'church voted amongst themselves to get rid of us, a meeting of sorts was held & we were told to get out. No scriptures, no nothing. Discussion was not allowed. "But we have since formed an independent assembly, with authority & are just waiting for the Lord to send us a pastor. In the meantime, our son-in-law does a super job leading us. There are too many churches here that look no different from the world.

 

Maverick,
Thank you for posting that. WHy should a man who comes to church to hear God's Word have to turn his head away because so many women are dressed like harlots. Men are attracted to women by sight and what they see entices them. A man should not have to do this in the house of the Lord when these women profess Christ. I understand we may have some prostitutes that visit and we want them to be converted, however the ones that have become a new creature ought to learn about Biblical standards of modesty as taught in 1 Tim 2;9-16 and 1 Peter 3. We are to be discreet it says in 1 Peter 3. These are not men's standards but God's. Men are to enforce them in the pulpit and women are to teach them to babes in Christ.
Granny,
I know that feeling of being excluded because you choose to follow Biblical commands. I remember being at a flea market where I saw some ladies who I had attended a Bible study and church with at times. I saw them snickering and laughing at me since I had changed to a modest apparel. I was not like them anymore, I was not dressed like the world and it was unacceptable for me to dress like a modest woman,but according to them good for me to dress as a harlot or a man.
Actually I am surprised that I have not been voted out of my church yet.

HCL

 

I have heard and heard of preachers preaching about what to wear and legalistic mumbo.

Who needs it? Even as a young Christian, I heard the preaching of the word about "important" things, and in my young state, the Holy Spirit guided and led and helped me make changes.

When "man" tries to do this, it almost always causes alienation.

 

Well, amen, sister HCL! It's hardly a church anymore that practices church discipline & the one we were in exercised it heavily, even to the point of being unscriptural. When one begins to follow Jesus completely, he is branded all kinds of names, including legalist. After my girls & I started wearing dresses only, all the time, we were mocked & one lady even suggested that we keep a pair of pants-'just in case'. In case of what?! "Compromise always leads to capitulation!"

 

Ladies, following Jesus is really much deeper than being concerned about wearing a dress or wearing pants. When one gets so caught up in this aspect it is really legalistic, not just modesty. Plenty of godly women can be modest in a pair of pants, you may disagree with that but it's a holy spirit issue. I applaude that you stick to your guns on where the holy spirit has led you, but don't go pointing fingers....I personally wear pants and I have never once been convicted of being ungodly or compromising. I also believe many churches have become way over the top in legalism and are more concerned about issues that mean little compared to one's soul.

karen

 

I am sorry if I seemed to be pointing my finger. I had all these same 'ideas' before I fully surrendered my life & my will completely to Jesus. (Surrendering totally to the Lord will change your life forever)! The Holy Spirit NEVER leads you to disobey the Bible & I think some things are not about 'convictions' but is a command from God. "Someone once asked how would I feel if my husband started wearing dresses! *ouch* (Even the little pictures on public restrooms tell the tale). No,I'm not telling anyone to do anything;just stating my thoughts

 

Is this thread about standards or rules? I have tried to point out the difference, but it still seems to keep comming back to rules.

There is a standard that we should all attept to live up to, and that is the Bible. There are standards that man sets, and that includes most chruchs. Again we try to meet that standard. Then there are rules that tell us what we must do or face punishment. Personally I'm all for standards. Rules are necessary in society, and in chruch, but we don't need rules in chruch that tend to micromanage our lives.

Bill

 

Which parts of God's Word speak of "unimportant" things?

2Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Bible is my "rule" of faith, and within it there are plenty of "standards" that God has set forth, and expects me to obey.
DHK

 

It's to my belief that since I have totally surrendered my life to Jesus completely that the clothes I wear are not as important as what's in my heart. I am modest, but I am also comfortable.

I don't believe a dress code such as no pants only dresses is a command in the bible but simply a rule some christians try to make up on their own from personal convictions.

karen

 

Granny,
Yes, the same thing happened to me. First I began crying out to God for mercy for the chastisement that I was under, then I decided to say, "Not my will, but Thine, Lord." Then I began to read the Word and I noticed that much of it was not being taught in churches. But, I felt that I must apply the Scriptures even if no one I knew was. Then came the ostracization by most professing Christians I know. In most cases I never said a word, "like you ought to, etc." I simply did and was outcast.
Karen,
Prov 4:23, "Keep they heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."

When we surrender all to Jesus and begin to live His way many things change. The heart ought to be the first, you are exactly right. One can have the most modest loose flowing apparel on and still be wicked. But, for me I noticed that as the Lord began to work in my heart on issues such as being content to be a woman, be submissive and be modest, there were some outer changes that occured too. These were not before the heart change they were outward manefestations of obedience to the inner heart change and His Word.
HCL

 

I would hate to burst anyone's bubble, but you (and no one else I know) has totally surrendered their life to Christ. We are not perfect. Here is what the greatest command of Christ is:

(Mark 12:30) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

I don't believe there is anyone that loves God with all of their heart, mind, and strength, all the time, every day. To do so would be claiming perfection. It would be putting yourself on the same plain as Christ when He walked this earth--sinless and perfect. Are you "totally surrendered?" No, no one is.
You may not believe in dress codes but many organizations (businesses, private schools, hospitals, etc.) do. Many local churches have their own dress codes which they believe are Biblically-based. I attend such a church. Every one is welcome. If you study your Bible you will find that God has set out a standard that all pastors and deacons (servants) need to follow (1Tim.3:1-13). There are other standards set out in the pastoral epistles elsewhere. If you keep in mind that the word deacon is simply another word for servant, and that every person who wants to serve the Lord should uphold the standards that are generally set forth there, you will have no problem with standards. It is necessary for a church to enforce standards. Every person who represents our church in any way, whether singing in the choir, being an usher, leading music, singing a solo, going on visitation, etc. meets certain standards including a dress code. If you don't like that you are very welcome to attend our services, but do not expect to take part in any position of leadership or service. When you represent our church you become an ambassador not only of our church, but of Christ. If you bring reproach and disunity to the church that you are serving in, then you are not bringing glory to Christ.
1Cor.10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
DHK

 

DHK I hate to bust your theories but I totally disagree with your thinking here. I don't believe just because one sells out to Jesus means they are considered perfect. You can surrender your life and still have issues..the fact is your heart and mind are given to Jesus to use and work with. I believe anyone can fully love God with everything they have, not sure why it's not possible.

Also, dhk this this is the type of church I would not even attend, to me it's not worth it. If I can't come as who I am and what I wear and be what God created me to be then I'm letting some pastor dictate to me who and what he thinks I should be...now way.

karen

[ May 09, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: redwhitenblue ]

 

Karen,

karen,

Strange attitude for someone "totally surrendered to Christ" Some one who is totally surrendered will also be in submission to the one placed over them.

There is a tone of rebellion in the above posts.

Can't understand how one can claim to be saved and then not want to do all they can to please Christ, which includes dying to self. There are many on this board clinging to that old man and feeding him more tahn the sprirtual man (or woman).

Ernie

 

The Bible is the source of all rules and authority of a true New Testament Church. The Pastor does have the authority to enforce the Bible's rules pertaining to church members. That's one of the reasons he is there as an undershepherd. The church is not a democratic institution but a theocratic one. It may be congregational in form, but its government is theocratic with the pastor as undershepherd to the Ruler, Jesus Christ, and responsible chiefly to Him, second to the congregation.
The rules being enforced are found in the Bible and may not be added on, or left to personal conviction where the rules are black and white.
Having said that, here are some of them:

For pastors:

blameless, husband of one wife, vigilant (this includes watching out for wolves in sheeps' clothing, false doctrines, and straying sheep), sober (not just sober from drunkenness, but sober in attitude), of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach, not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre (his reward is in heaven, not in the tithes and offerings), patient, not covetous;
ruleth well his own house (has the respect of his family), having his children in subjection with all gravity (obvious), not a novice, must have a good report of them which are without

For deacons and other elders:

grave, not double-tounged (one thing to John, another to thing to Bob), not given to too much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre (there it is again), holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience (meaning if he doubts any part of
the Bible he has no business being a deacon). husbands of one wife (there it is again), ruling their children and their own houses well (and there it is again). 1 Tim. 3:2-9,12.

The deacons' wives:

grave (not constantly giggling), not slanderers
(read about the tongue in James), ruling their children and their own houses well (certainly not a liberal mom or leave-that-to-your-own-conviction-you're-big-enough-now-sweetheart type).
1 Tim. 3:11.

The women in church:
adorn themselves in modest apparel, not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array. learn in silence, with all subjection, not to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man but be in silence.
....1 Tim. 2:10

Men of the church:

sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience...Titus 2:2

Mature Women in church:
be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things that they may teach the young women to be:
sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home[/I}, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.Titus 2:3-4.

The emphasis is to be holy, separate, different.
These are rules of faith and practice covering behavior in black and white and therefore not subject to one's convictions.
The Pastor has the authority to enforce them, to lay them down as the church's codes of behavior by which members will be subject and violations of which will be dealt with in a biblical manner.

Here is where the pastor gets his authority:

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with alllongsuffering and doctrine....2 Tim.:1-2
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Titus 2:15.

New testament churches are gatherings of local,
visible bodies of believers who have separated themselves, sanctified themselves, unto the Lord, called out by Him to be a city of light where they are, their good works and behavior visible to the world that their Father may be glorified in them, thru them.
Modesty in dress and clothing, sobriety in behavior within the church, outside the church, even in the home,in makeup and jewelry is the standards by which rules are made.

Black and white. Not subject to one's personal convictions.

 

Pinoy,

AMEN!

 

Just some thoughts. On the whole, I agree with pinoy and Ernie.

Ya know, we do have a liberty in Christ, that goes beyond meat and drink (remember the principle involved, and don't focus on the meat or the drink), and we shouldn't allow our salvation to be judged by others based on apparel, eating of meat, or drink (1 Cor 10:29). But I don't believe that's what pinoy and Ernie are saying....

Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.

1 Cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

So one could say that modest dress is a personal conviction, based on scripture; but shouldn't I be worrying about more than what I personally am convicted of?

[ May 10, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Don ]