stigmata, Marian apparitions, etc.

Hi Clint,

You wrote, "I never saw any post that said that the vatican was investigating. If this is so, I retract the accusation."

Thank you for retracting your accusation.

You wrote, "if I could stand before you and duplicate this feat, would it make you question the validity of it being spiritual?"

When you say "spiritual", I'm sure that you mean "miraculous". Yes, it would, but even then, it wouldn't invoke anything new on my part. I already have questioned the validity of the reality of the event, and I've come to accept what is unexplainable by faith.

Miracles can not be proved for the precise reason that they are miraculous.

What "can" be proven are events that are not miraculous for the precise reason that the cause can be demonstrated rationally. So, the burden of proof, Clint, is on you to demonstrate that Mary Kourbet Al-Akhras is really a travelling magician: http://www.soufanieh.com/eestigma.htm

You wrote, "I don't like any trickery used in the Christian faith."

I'm right there with you.

God bless,

Carson

[ November 15, 2002, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Clint --

Having never been to Jerusalem at the time of the Old Calander Pascha, I do not have ready answers to your questions. The point of my post regarding the Holy Fire was to show that such things as miracles do occur outside of the Catholic Faith. The article stated quite clearly that this miracle is not allowed to happen to anyone but the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem. Others who have attempted to usurp his place have failed to bring the light.

The Patriarch is thoroughly searched by Muslims who of all things, would have a real interest in not seeing such miracle happen because the validation of Christianity is the invalidation of their false religion.

Interestingly enough, the first martyr of this site was a Muslim who was in a minerette to call the faithful to prayer. He observed the Holy Fire and instead of calling for prayers to "allah" the demon god, cried out "Great is the God of the Christians", for which he was tossed to his martyrdom from the top of the minerette where he was posted.

Helen, I have a couple of observations regarding your postings:

You claim that God is immutable, and we would agree upon this, however, HIS DEALINGS WITH MANKIND change. If you don't believe this, then what are you doing not offering a lamb for your sins? The obvious answer is that there has been a change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. Christ's death has conquered and eliminated death (the state of separation from God). During the time in which mankind awaited the coming of the Messiah, those righteous who died in faith were kept in a place called Paradise. They could not enter Heaven until the work of the Cross was finished. Therefore, they were still separated from God till YOM KIPPUR was made in Heaven (Heb. 9 & 10) and mankind was corporately united back to God and the separation ended. Since that separation is ended now, we can commune with the spiritual world and the saints who have preceeded us.

St. Paul states regarding the kindness done to strangers that "...some have entertained angels unawares..." Was this verbal hyperbole or did St. Paul mean exactly what he said regarding this? And of course, do not forget that he himself was taken to the third heaven, which sounds very much like a spiritual experience similar to that of visionaries.

Finally, what's with the bitterness in your posts? Instead of congratulating Carson on living out his faith and walking for life, you bust on him about "it's illegal to walk Highway 50" Your whole tone in this thread has been profoundly negative and bitter and I am a bit surprized at it.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

You are correct in saying that I have no faith in the Catholic Church. They have long been using the art of illusion to win converts and hold sway over their more gullible members.

Hardly. I would more accuse the current crop of Evangelicals of such behavior by promoting such things as the "rapture" of the Church and by keeping them in ignorance of the writings of the Early Fathers. One wonders exactly what they are afraid of. Could it be that the presence of Catholic praxis and theological language in the second, third, and forth centuries would raise among the sheep too many embarrassing questions?


When I first joined this board I did not see any problem with Catholicism. It was after I read the numerous posts blaspheming the clear teachings of Scripture and the gullibility of its members that I began to develop a more skeptical eye toward your denomination.

Then we owe you a sincere apology. I have consistently tried to show how the covenant of God validates Catholic (and Orthodox) praxis and teachings. It seems that I have not done a very good job with it.

Our attempts have been to show how Catholic praxis does not oppose scripture. You claim that it does, but be honest, you would also have to claim that for Presbyterians who claim infant baptism, would you not? You would also have to claim that for Episcopalians who sprinkle, not immerse. You would also have to claim that againt Lutherans who claim that baptism is regenerative. What you insist is the "clear teachings" and perspecuity of Scripture simply will not hold water. If Scripture was that clear, there would not be hundreds of different denominations, would there?

However, I will never abandon hope for these individuals. That is why I have begun to post here so much.

And we feel the same towards you. The Church existed for 1500 years in doctrinal unity. You can and have the right to claim that there were Baptists present at the Last Supper. There is simply nothing in historical writings to support such a notion [or the notions of Wallace Bell who insists that the Church was Calvinistic Presbyterian from day one ].

That which you do not understand is indeed hard to fathom, especially when you have been trained to think against it. For a Protestant to observe and try to make sense of the Catholic Faith is like the Russian spy who defected to America and simply couldn't understand what he saw. What he had been told was NOT what he was experiencing once he came over here.

I understand your confusion because I am finding now that since the euphoria of my conversion has worn off I now need to be "enculturated". Things which Catholic and Orthodox take as ordinary and regular are still different to me and have that feel of being different. That does not mean "wrong", it means that I must change my paradigm of how God deals with mankind.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Hi Ed!, You made some good points. This has been an interesting thread to follow.

Carson, You wrote:
""I thought that I would also mention that the miracle was a sign that accompanied her message, not of the sensationalism you speak of, and no one demanded the miracle; it just "happened" unexpectedly.""

So what we have here is a gathered assembly of believers, and a woman in front of the assembly with a "miracle" and a "message". Is that correct?

If that sums it up then my thought on the other thread is more valid then I first believed. That thought being that this violates scripture in light of what a woman's role in a gathered assembly is. Carson, I have posted the scriptures to you before so will not to it again. This "assembly" was a "shame" to God. Again that word in Greek means ugly or deformed, so in other words that assembly was "ugly" in the sight of God and therefore the miracle was NOT of God. (I say that obviously as a line of logic argument based on what scripture tells us). Carson, be looking for a response to the other thread, hopefully this weekend. Carson, please do not be offended as my comments were not meant to be insulting, just direct.

Take care, In Christ,
Brian

 

Carson, I am stunned. Do you seriously believe
that when Y'shua died, He remained dead?
You wrote "Jesus is dead."

 

Hi Brian,

Did you read the article to which I linked in my reply on that thread? I think Dave makes some valid points, namely that "women can definitely teach men many things, while not 'having authority' over them". 1 Tim 2:12, "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men". I would interject that Paul is speaking of binding authority, which is an ecclesiastical role. Notice that Paul immediately proceeds to the description of the office of bishop, placing his instruction within the context of his thought. Paul has a theological foundation for what he instructs.

Dave writes, "The situation dealt with in 1 Cor 14:34-5 appears to be simply a cultural consideration concerning politeness, propriety and order, as opposed to an absolute mandate. The latter intuitively seems far too strict to and virtually impossible to be apply without exception. Phoebe is called by Paul a "deacon" in Rom 16:1-2 (whatever that term might be taken to mean). My New Bible Dictionary (p.298) states that the Greek Fathers interpreted 1 Tim 3:11 as referring to deaconesses, not merely deacon's wives (cf. Lk 8:2). The "deacon" in the NT was primarily an office of service, and also of evangelism (Lk 8:2 implies this)."

I don't apply the same hermeneutic that you do, and Protestantism itself is divided on this issue itself because of the various hermeneutics applied. You approach the text with a Fundamentalist interpretive approach, and I disagree with your approach. Your hermeneutic seems to be devoid of any theological considerations - simply a blind following of the text. What are Paul's foundations? I see both cultural and theological foundations at work, and this is key when reconstructing the Church today according to the NT model (the object of Fundamentalist congregations).

Hi Abiyah,

Of course I don't believe that Jesus is dead! I'm a professing Catholic for goodness sake. If I were to say, "Jesus is not God", would you think I was being serious? I hope not.

I was pointing out, to Helen, that she prays to a living man in heaven, not a dead Jesus. She considers the saints to be dead, and since Jesus is the firstborn of his brethren, I was demonstrating how, if the saints are only dead men, then Jesus is only a dead man.

Thankfully, he's not. Jesus is risen in heaven, and the Saints gathered around his throne, united to him in splendor and glory, are just as alive.

God bless,

Carson

[ November 15, 2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Jesus arose from the dead. He lives today. The so-called saints in Heaven never arose from the dead. They are still dead. BTW, The Bible indicate that every born again believer is a saint. The word simply means "holy one," or "separated one." Paul called the believers at Ephesus saints. You can call Helen, for example, Saint Helen, or me Saint DHK,
DHK

 

Paul even called the carnal Christians in Corinth "Saints".

2Cor 1:1

 

Hi guys,

The term "saint" is an english translation of the Latin for holy: "sanctus".

The Church calls those in heaven "saints" because they have completely been made holy. The Church also calls those on earth "saints" because we have already begun to be sanctified (we are all at different levels in our sanctification, and our goal is to be completely sanctified, conformed to the image of the Son).

Every Sunday and Solemnity, the Church, in her liturgy, professes the Nicene Creed, which speaks of the "communion of saints". This speaks of the communion that all members of the Body of Christ share, both those in heaven and those on Earth.

It is commonplace to refer to canonized saints as Saints, but this does not preclude us from being called saints, inasmuch as are conformed to the image of the firstborn among many brethren.

God bless,

Carson

[ November 15, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Jesus arose from the dead. He lives today. The so-called saints in Heaven never arose from the dead. They are still dead.

So in other words, they are "made alive" in Christ and then they "die" when they go to be with Jesus?

Uh unh. I don't think so. Just because the body is not attached to the soul yet does not mean that they are "dead". If they are, then Christ's work is a total failure, and I don't think you are wanting to insinuate that, are you?

Brother Ed

 

This is still a future event described here: in 1Thes. 4:16,17,

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
DHK

 

Hi DHK,

The just souls in heaven are dead only insofar as they have not been reunited with their bodies. This is mere "semantics". Regarding their souls, they are alive and well as members of Jesus Christ's Body in the Beatific Vision.

God bless,

Carson

 

Indeed the thread "Communion of Saints, Prayers to the Dead" explored this very notion of similarity between the ancestor worship of the pagan religions and prayers to the dead - such as prayers to Mary.

The catholic church has some interesting traditions in its Mariology (Mariolotry?) about the "Tomb of Mary" and the "Assumption of Mary" after her death. All of them are fascinating stories on the RCC Mariology sites.

The Bible absolutely forbids spiritism - communion with the dead as we see in Isaiah 8:19. So not only are prayers to Mary out - but so also are prayers to other dead saints - and another common practice of both the Catholic and non-Christian religions - prayers to dead ancestors - dead relatives.

In the NT the dead are called "The Dead in Christ" as the thread "Communion of saints, Prayers to the dead" points out. using that NT term is not expected to be offensive - I am merely stating it as it reads.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

The semantics is on your part Carson. Death is a very real and common event. The Bible says that "It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgement" (Heb.9:27). Every man dies. Abraham being 175 years, died. His wife Sarah died before him. Death is inevitable to all. The "dead in Christ shall rise first" at the rapture. We are commanded not to pray to the dead: whether those dead be ‘dead believers' of the past, or ‘dead unbelievers' of the past. They are still dead. What do you do with a dead person? Bury them. You don't pray to them. Jesus told a young man to leave all and come and follow him. He said that he had to bury his father first. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead, but come thou and follow me." Let the spiritually dead (on earth) bury the physically dead. Death is a common event.
Necromancy is praying to the dead--it does not matter whether or not that dead person is Mary or Hitler. It is the same. They are both dead. You can pray to "Saint" Peter or Stalin. Both have the same power to answer prayer. Both are dead. Praying to either one is considered necromancy.
DHK

 

Hi DHK,

Are the souls of the dead alive with Christ in heaven presently?

God bless,

Carson

 

Yes, the souls of "the dead in Christ" are with Christ today.

 

Hi DHK,

You answered, "Yes, the souls of "the dead in Christ" are with Christ today."

I posted above that "the just souls in heaven are dead only insofar as they have not been reunited with their bodies. This is mere 'semantics'. Regarding their souls, they are alive and well as members of Jesus Christ's Body in the Beatific Vision."

You then responded with "The semantics is on your part Carson." and continued to emphasize how Christians of old are "dead".

Now, you admit that "the souls of 'the dead in Christ' are with Christ today".

If Christ is alive presently in heaven, and if the souls of 'the dead in Christ' are with Christ today, then would not our use of the word "dead" to describe those who are currently alive with Christ in the Beatific Vision be a word that fails to fully grasp the theological truth of the status of the souls of the just made perfect in Heaven? Granted, it is a Biblical term, but, do you concede that the souls are alive insofar as they are with Christ experiencing the glory of Heaven presently?

Like I said, this is a semantical problem. Would you agree that dead means "the souls of those currently in Heaven are not reunited with their bodies"? Or, do you have another definition for "dead"?

God bless,

Carson

[ November 16, 2002, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Isa.43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa.44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Ex.20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Rom 14:10 KJV) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

(2 Cor 5:10 KJV) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rev.20:4 ...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev.20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here are some Scriptures to consider:
First, there is but one God, and He alone is to be worshipped. It is my contention that when you pray to Mary or any other saint that you give worship to that saint that is due only to God. Catholics claim they don't worship Mary by drawing a false dichotomy in the meaning of worship. Latria and dulia are still worship even if called by different names. Prayer is worship.

Second, there are two resurrections as John tells, or more specifically, as Jesus describes to us. The graves will be opened. That is the graves of dead people, not living people, (I hope!) will be opened. The good (i.e. the saved will be resurrected to a resurrection of life; but the evil to a resurrection of damnation. There are two resurrections; two judgements.

Third, Romans 14 and 2Cor.5 speak of the judgement seat of Christ. This is the judgement for believers only. It is described in more detail in 1Cor.3:11-15. The unsaved will not be present here; only the saved. We will be judged according to our works, for our salvation is already secured here on earth. It is not a judgement where one can lose their salvation. They can only lose reward or potential reward. At this judgement we will stand before Christ and all will be revealed: all our works--good and bad. Before the judgement throne of Christ will stand Mary, Peter, Paul, Helen, Briguy, Dr. Bob, myself, and every other believer. Mary will be judged just like any other sinner. She will be judged according to her works. These are the dead in Christ. I am still alive, and only if the rapture takes place before I die will I not be considered among the dead in Christ, but I will be caught up with them when Christ comes for His Bride.

Fourth, there is a second resurrection, a resurrection to damnation, which is called the Great White Throne Judgement. It is here that all the unsaved will stand before God. Notice who will be there:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
The sea gave up the DEAD, and DEATH and hell delivered up the DEAD. They were judged every man according to their works. This is the final judgement. They are all dead, spiritually dead. They have come for their final sentencing. Now they will all be thrown into the Lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are. For these do not have their names written in the Book of Life. They are the dead, spiritually and now eternally.

Fifth. The word dead is an interesting word. In the Scriptures it means separation. James says "For as the body without the spirit is dead; so faith without works is dead." When you separate the body from the spirit you have death. Death is a separation of the spirit from the body. That is physical death.
Eph.2:1 "And you hath he quickened (made alive) who were dead in trespasses in sin. This is spiritual death: when the spirit is separated from God because of sin. The unsaved are separated from God because of sin. They are made alive through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
Rom.6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." This verse teaches eternal death. Just as the gift of God is eternal life, the wages of sin is eternal death. Paul is drawing a comparison here. Without Christ one will be separated from Christ for all eternity. Death is separation. So to recap: There is
1. Physical death. James 2:26
2. Spiritual death. Eph.2:1
3. Eternal death. Rom.6:23

Now if it is a matter of distinguishing between dead bodies and living spirits, it does not matter whether the spirit is of Stalin or Mary. Stalin's spirit is "alive" in Hell, (just as the rich man's was). Death is simply separation from God. Mary's spirit is alive in Heaven. They are both dead from an earthly point of view. If you pray to their "spirits," you involve your self in the occult and are no better than the witch of Endor that Saul went to. Spiritism is forbidden in the Bible, as is necromancy-- praying to the dead. It does not matter if the spirit is from a saved person or unsaved person, it is wrong; it is occultic.
DHK

 

Here are some Scriptures to consider:
First, there is but one God, and He alone is to be worshipped. It is my contention that when you pray to Mary or any other saint that you give worship to that saint that is due only to God.

Wrong again. Prayer is not worship. It can be, depending upon the language ("You alone are God, You are worthy alone of our worship.....etc."), but the asking of intercession from another being is not worship.

Catholics claim they don't worship Mary by drawing a false dichotomy in the meaning of worship. Latria and dulia are still worship even if called by different names. Prayer is worship.

Wrong.

Second, there are two resurrections as John tells, or more specifically, as Jesus describes to us. The graves will be opened. That is the graves of dead people, not living people, (I hope!) will be opened.

Wrong again. Man, you make a HABIT of torturing the Scriptures!!

The good (i.e. the saved will be resurrected to a resurrection of life; but the evil to a resurrection of damnation. There are two resurrections; two judgements.

Not what Jesus said AT ALL!!!

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Perhaps if you ever learn how to properly exegete the Scriptures DHK, you can escape the clutches of this cult you are in that has you all confused. Jesus said that ALL -- do you UNDERSTAND the meaning of ALL????? -- who are in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth.

And then, just so that people like you wouldn't live in such confusion, He defines ALL for you -- the GOOD DID YOU GIT THAT????? - to the resurrection of life and the EVIL ARE YOU LISTENING, MAN?????? --- to the resurrection of evil.

ONE EVENT -- NOT TWO!!!

Third, Romans 14 and 2Cor.5 speak of the judgement seat of Christ. This is the judgement for believers only.

More of your cultic nonsense. This totally contradicts the description of the Great Judgement on the Last Day as found in Romans 2: 5 - 10 in which it says that the righteous and the unrighteous are judged at the same event.

It is described in more detail in 1Cor.3:11-15. The unsaved will not be present here; only the saved. We will be judged according to our works, for our salvation is already secured here on earth.

BALOOOOOOOONEY!!!!!!

What's the matter with you anyway. This cult you are in has yer brains all scrambled. Romans 2 says that all are judged at one event. You are trying to take the description of what happens to the righteous on the Great Day and make it an entirely separate event. Bad hermeneutics.

It is not a judgement where one can lose their salvation. They can only lose reward or potential reward. At this judgement we will stand before Christ and all will be revealed: all our works--good and bad. Before the judgement throne of Christ will stand Mary, Peter, Paul, Helen, Briguy, Dr. Bob, myself, and every other believer.

Uhhhhh......you don't have any works, remember? Youse guys don't believe that works is important because youse guys think that you have this mythological covering of Christ's righteousness. You are going to be shocked when Romans 2: 5 - 10 is actually executed in your presence and Christ says to you "Let's see if you did righteousness, for only the righteous are allowed in Heaven."

He will also judge you according to the standard He set forth in the Gospels, which is whether or not you cared for the sick, fed the hungry, comforted the poor, and took care of your brethren. (Matthew 25: 31-46). And note what is said in verse 46. The righteous shall inherit eternal life, not the "faith alone" crowd. DHK, you better start working on yer righteousness, pal, if you expect to obtain the kingdom of God!!!

Mary will be judged just like any other sinner.

Nope. Can't be. Her sins were already removed by the Blood of Christ before She was concieved in God's timeless eternity. And She lived a sinless life in perfect conformity to the will of God. Nothing to judge there. (PS You really need to think hard on exactly WHO'S Mommy you keep insulting)

She will be judged according to her works.

No sin. No judgement. End of story.

These are the dead in Christ. I am still alive, and only if the rapture takes place before I die will I not be considered among the dead in Christ, but I will be caught up with them when Christ comes for His Bride.

Don't hold your breath. There is no such thing as the "rapture". Yer cult has ya decieved. Too bad you don't study the Bible with people who know how to do exegesis and actually read.

Fourth, there is a second resurrection, a resurrection to damnation, which is called the Great White Throne Judgement.

If wrong was gold, you could retire tomorrow. The first resurrection was in AD 70 when Christ returned. It was the resurrection of the spirits in Paradise and the souls on earth here. It is described in 1 Corinthians 15, that passage you and yer cult torture to try to prove the fallacious "rapture". The event being taught here is the "catching up" of the souls of the just on earth with the souls of the just in Paradise to be with the Lord. Before Christ's work was finished, the righteous had to go into Paradise because the separation between God and man, also called "DEATH" in the Scriptures, had not been cured by Christ's death. So not only were the souls of the righteous and alive on earth separated from God, but those who had passed on were put in a delightful waiting room called Paradise.

When Jesus returned in AD 70, the work of the Cross was officially finished with the destruction of the Temple. As I have told you before, in keeping with the typology of the Old Covenant (another thing yer cult is obviously weak in understanding), the work of the Jewish High Priest was not finished until the high priest came back from where he had entered the temple mount. Therefore, unless Christ returned to earth, the Cross work is not finished and we are all in our sins corporately.

The return of Christ ended the Old Covenant officially and by this, with the precious Blood on the altar of the temple in Heaven, the souls of the just were released from Paradise to God and the souls of the just on earth were united to God and the barrier between us broken down. This is why now we go to be directly with the Lord rather than to Paradise, and it is this "catching up" that St. Paul describes in 1 Thess. 4 also. The language is parallel, but of course, yer cult would't teach you that either because they don't know how to compare Scripture with Scripture and how to take Scripture in context. The context of 1 Corin 15 IS the resurrection. Yet yer cult takes the wording and tries to apply it to some dream induced fantasy called "the rapture".

The word dead is an interesting word. In the Scriptures it means separation.

Right. Amazing. You actually know this concept. I am amazed.

Therefore, death is not the cessation of thought and speech as we see in the physical body here on earth, it is separation from God. And this proves my point about the so called "rapture" and the resurrection of the saints. Jesus defeated death. In other words, He ended the SEPARATION between God and mankind so that the righteous do not have to go to Paradise now.

Think of it. Since you are righteous (I am assuming you are a good and decent Christian full of good works, DHK), then the minute you were born again by your baptism (I know, I know -- humor me) your soul was reunited with God. Before that, in the Old Covenant, even when one was circumcized, the separation still remained. Now....if you were baptized in the New Covenant before AD 70, you were still bound for the holding place -- Paradise. but on the day Christ returned, a marvelous thing happened. The last barrier was taken away. The separation, called death, was officially gone, and your soul was clear and free to God. Had you died the next day, you would have gone directly to God instead of to Paradise.

Would you have felt anything? Probably not. But it happened, nonetheless.

Death is simply separation from God.

Hold that thought. Then the Blessed Virgin and the saints are really not dead, are they?

Mary's spirit is alive in Heaven. They are both dead from an earthly point of view. If you pray to their "spirits," you involve your self in the occult and are no better than the witch of Endor that Saul went to. Spiritism is forbidden in the Bible, as is necromancy-- praying to the dead. It does not matter if the spirit is from a saved person or unsaved person, it is wrong; it is occultic.

The reason that the Old Covenant prohibited interaction with the spirit realm was the the barrier of death -- separation from God -- was still up. That does not exist anymore. We are all in God. Some are righteous and will be saved by their righteousness IN CHRIST. NOT their own righteousness, their righteousness IN CHRIST. It is our righteousness, for it is our works which Christ will judge....BUT, it is BECAUSE OF HIS CROSS WORK that we can be righteous by His prompting.

Christ has reunited everything in Him. The Good News is that God is not angry with sinners anymore, having reconciled the world to Himself through Christ. We are all in the presence of God. The righteous shall stay in that presence forever. The unrighteous shall be cast out.

I know. Let me say it for you.

HEEEEEEERERESYYYYYYY!!!!

Okay?

Have a nice day, DHK. Hope you get free from that cult yer in some day.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

[ November 16, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]