Featured Storehouse Thithing according John R. Rice

Nonsense.

We should all be able to minister the word.

Again you inject a secular philosophy into a spiritual matter.

But that is not the issue here. The issue is wanting to dictate doctrine from behind the scenes.

If the Pastor's theology is errant, then the proper procedure would be to find someone else. Not try to manipulate the man that is supposed to minister the word.

Do you understand what I am saying?

How about I disregard the hypotheticals. This will save a little time, lol.

Did I say my friend complained about what he makes? That was MY complaint.

And as a matter of fact he did go out and do other work. Perhaps it is my fault, really, because I should have never mentioned him. I simply expressed a view that I hope would balance the view about Pastors that "live like kings." The issue is not a monetary one for my friend, and he has, to my recollection, never once complained about his wage or going out and doing other work.

Your conclusions have nothing to do with what was said.

I realized that.

I have my thoughts on it, yes, lol.

In part I would agree, as I do wish he made enough that he could devote his time to full-time ministry.

And I reiterate that I think all worthy Pastors should receive a fare wage, that they might support themselves.

And I agree the scenario you present is secular, I am just left wondering why you think your hypothetical scenarios have anything to do with what has been posted.

It's not really your place to offer an opinion, though, is it? This is irrelevant to the original post, and it is irrelevant to you and I.

So you feel it is normal for there to be this kind of issue in a local body?

Again, money is not the issue. The issues do not revolve around money, but around elders that think they rule the church. What they say...goes.

You okay with that? You think that it is the role of elders to direct the Pastor in his ministry? That they will determine doctrine, and tell the Preacher what they want him to preach?

You conclude in error, HOS. If you would deal with what is said rather than creating what is going on you might save yourself a little time.

You would lose that bet, HOS.

But then, it seems you have a tendency to make conclusions like this.

I will just reiterate what I have already said, that I wish he was paid a wage that would allow that he focus on his ministry to that fellowship, but knowing him, I have confidence that he could work several jobs and still minister in an effective manner. I'm telling you, this is God's man, and I believe God's hand is on him, and the result will be glorious.

Actually, deep down, I think you have a bad habit of failing to respond to what is said and contriving and injecting your own "deep downs" in order to speak ill of others.

But then, I can only go on what you have said, so I won't guess about your deep-downs, lol.

Guess what, you lose that bet as well. You have assumed that this is about money, when that aspect is entirely my opinion, and has nothing to do with either my friend or the issues he is dealing with.

It's spiritual, HOS, not carnal.

That is up for debate, but that too is just my opinion. :smilewinkgrin:


Continued...

 

Well that is the problem, isn't it: your scenario has nothing to do with anything but a platform to base a rant.

Right?

It isn't.

My advice has been to continue preaching as God leads him. I think that he will overcome in this and it will be from the pulpit. I believe that because I believe, again, he is God's man and he is where he is supposed to be.

If your scenario accurately portrayed the situation, I would likely agree, but it does not, so I don't. lol

Where do you get this?

How do you conclude the "board isn't comfortable paying him for a task?" Not from what I have said, to be sure. Another deep-down, maybe?

Not my place to second guess the Lord. It may very well be that this is for the purpose of teaching him leadership. That would be a safe bet...want to get in on the action? lol

Them? The elders? The congregation? Both?

Who is it you refer to? No wait, forget I asked.

Irrelevant. Would this resolve the issues? No, because again you have jumped to an erroneous conclusion and ran after it, thinking that it is relevant.

Yes...they will seek to push him around for free, lol.

I do think that eventually this latter will happen. And this, not because my friend tries to "win a battle" that shouldn't be taking place in the first place, but because God will do His work when he has a willing servant.

And now we get to the congregation. If they have even a trace amount of respect for him that I do from getting to know him, they already love this fellow.

My hope is that through this the elders do repent, rather than leave. You see, while I might have a negative view about their actions, it is not my desire that this should end in their leaving, but that they will allow God to work through this young man rather than seek to enforce their own traditions upon him.

I believe this will happen as well.

And as I said, he has been steadfast, and my hat is off to him. Many would have been gone long ago, leaving this fellowship to it's own fate.

But I'm not the one inserting improbable scenarios. I'm just responding to the ones you inject.

Correction: that is the scenario you have presented.

My opinion has very little to do with the issues.

Well, that is easy enough to pursue.

We can start with first presenting the scripture that has Paul upset that he isn't paid enough and going out to find a job.

:smilewinkgrin:

As far as my desires for my friend, they revolve around a successful ministry to that congregation...despite the elders.

Let me see, in the five or so posts that I have interacted with you, you have questioned my salvation, questioned my motives, questioned my doctrine...


...anything else you want to throw in there?

As far as scripture goes, if you want to actually address what I have said, feel free. Be glad to look at the scriptures I have thus far presented, and we can go from there.

Biblically, yes, he would be considered an elder, but, we have to also take into consideration how many fellowships function today. A board of deacons can sometimes, when a new Pastor is involved, try to dictate to the Pastor how he will minister and what he will teach. And this is not entirely out of order, I believe, as a sitting membership must bring in one that represents their own theology. So don't take an extreme view that I think a Pastor should have free reign to the point where he changes the doctrinal position of the fellowship altogether. But, choosing a Pastor should be given the care that someone that is contrary to the statement of faith of that fellowship isn't chosen.

I thought "steeped with tradition" would have been a clue as to what was in view. But again, it would have been netter had I not mentioned it at all, and simply presented my view that a Pastor should receive a fare wage.

While I might not be entirely opposed to a Pastor being independent from a wage given by the fellowship, we have to consider that today...that is just how it is done. And I think we could go back to Paul's statement and look at whether Paul teaches this very concept. I think he does, and if you disagree, we can discuss it.

*tap tap tap...no, I'm pretty sure this thing isn't on. Where's the tech?*

The issue is that the elders seek to lead. It is not a monetary issue, HOS.


Continued...

 

The discussion...is contrived. You are talking about something altogether different.

If you want to discuss my opinion, great. At least that would be relevant to what was posted.

Present the scripture.

Paul stood in a precarious position in his ministry, hated by many, and accused, more than likely, of seeking to gain monetary gain through his ministry.

He chose to support himself that he might not be charged with seeking after filthy lucre. Not that he was upset because he wasn't being paid enough.

You will now question my friend's integrity?

Incredible.

Incredible.

You have singlehandedly condemned everyone involved. Congratulations.

I think he is simply trusting in the Lord. He is not trying to wage a carnal warfare, at least, that is what I gather.

Okay...

Now this I have to agree with, and am pricked in my conscience.

But at least what I have said actually presents the actual situation. :smilewinkgrin:

But it is probably best not to talk of such things.

That is not how it seems HOS. It seems you have for some reason simply looked for something to doubt.

I think I do, and can tell you that you have misread and read into worse than I have seen done in quite some time.

And I can take your word for it that these men were as bad as you imply in your statement about them? Based on how you have interpreted my post I might be inclined to think perhaps you may have misread them as well.

Hate to say it, but you are getting dangerously close to being relevant to my post.

Careful...

Maybe I have misread him and am a poor judge of character. Maybe he is the man you portray him as...

So what exactly was your intent in your post? What did you hope to accomplish, HOS?

How is an irrelevant rant making a point?

Again...show me that in scripture.

Paul...had a job.

No, actually I simply responded to your hypothetical with an equally hypothetical response.

It had nothing to do with the post I made, my friend, the elders, or the congregation.

Understand?

I don't see Paul as the focus in the passage provided. Perhaps you could show that to me. His concern, like mine, I believe, was for another/others.

Truism?

Delusions of grandeur, really, lol.

Show me that in scripture.

You begin with...

...and you have still to make that point.

Now we have to distinguish between the reality of Paul's ministry and how many fellowship operate today. Paul was an Apostle, and I doubt many would question where that title placed him concerning leadership in the early Church.

And this mentality contributes tot he spiritual decline of America, I believe.

America has become one of the greatest mission fields in the world.

Our fellowship actually supports a missionary to...Montana.

Nonsense. We are all missionaries, my friend.

Could you show me that in scripture?

Paul uses the Levitical Priesthood as an example, does he not? Were they missionaries?

Okay, seems we have gotten off to a good start, but a I can (and do) appreciate your perspective, though we may be butting heads a little.

But that makes it interesting, no? :smilewinkgrin:

I would ask that from here on out my friend be excluded from our discussion. Deal with me, not him. I am one that mentioned I felt he should receive a fare wage, not him, so your beef is with my attitude and actions, not his.

You correctly rebuke me concerning my statement about the elders, which, if nothing else, that gives me something to carry away from the conversation so far.

God bless.

 

Just A Few Question..

Darrell....I've been following this little discussion you and HOS have going with some interest and while I DO NOT wish to interject myself into the middle of it (and I won't) it has brought up in my mind a few questions regarding your Pastor friend's situation. All matters of wages or other means of compensation ASIDE....just WHAT is this board of "elders" saying or doing to him that is creating a problem? Is this a Baptist church that is RUN by a board of elders or is it a Presbyterian church?
Just for the record....I'm 100% in favor of my Pastor who,besides being my friend is also a sincere and hardworking man with a great family. I would strenuously withstand ANY deacon or elder that tried to push him around for any reason. Thankfully, that kind of situation does NOT exist in our fellowship. As for the money thing...if he is getting the WORK of the ministry done then he is worth every penny he EARNS. If done properly that is a BIG job and definitely full-time in nature. If he was a deadbeat or a mere hireling...he should be sent packin'...as the old saying goes. You and HOS try to be nice to one another...OK?:laugh:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Hey Darrell,
Your points are well made, God bless your friend as this situation un-ravels.

 

And here for the longest time I thought I was the only baptist that didn't believe in tithing... Good to know

 

I know how you feel. I believe there is actually a GROWING number of Bible-Believers who are coming of the opinion that "Storehouse Tithing" is un-Scriptural. Personally, it is good to see IMO. Like so many others, I accepted it and practiced it as a fait accompli for years until I started studying the issue about a year and a half ago.

In case you are interested.....Aresman's book is INDEED worth the read. I like his book VERY much. I have given it to a number of my friends and family as gifts.

Russel Kelly's work (I have only seen debates and read articles, not his books) while very informative gets a little bit caustic. Although I understand the source of his angst against tithing.....He comes across as (understandably) a little angry that he has been "lied" to for years about the doctrine.

Many of us who have abandoned belief in the N.T. tithe I think feel that way at least a LITTLE bit, but I think we have to divorce ourselves from the latent feelings we have about it to be effective in showing the truth about the doctrine.

 

Thanks, Hos, that is my hope for him as well.

God bless.

 

Hello brother Greg, to be honest, I feel a little uncomfortable having a focus on my friend, so will try to drop that aspect of the discussion, only saying that what I know of the situation is limited, as I have not really discussed it in detail, just a few basics concerning a tendency to try to control what is taught from the pulpit.

It is my belief that the man of God in the pulpit is not led by a board, but by God, and that a competent preacher will be led of God to preach as God moves him. Preachers that fit their messages to the desires of others, or are directed, I should say, seems a little foreign to me, lol.

Understand that my comments about this situation I now see as untoward, I should not have said anything specific, but left it at "while I frown on those that seek to fleece the flock and live like kings, preaching for no other reason than money (and I once had a man I looked up to make the comment "There's good money in preaching," which about broke my heart to hear from him), I also think that a Pastor or Preacher should make a fare wage (and that he is a sincere man of God goes without saying, that is implied, as I do not think the wolves should receive a cent).

And I will be nice to HOS, lol, even if he picks on me...

:laugh:

God bless.