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Featured Study & Discussion of 1Corinthians 10

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Heretic Hunter, Feb 4, 2019.

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  1. Heretic Hunter

    Heretic Hunter Active Member

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    Jon do you see and hear the Gospel that was preached in Exodus 12? If so, we can come back later and put together the parallels to the Gospel Accounts, and in the meantime, we can move forward to discuss the provocation. Can you find the passage in Exodus that Apostle Paul referred to in 1Corinthians 10 & Hebrews 3-4 concerning the provocation in the wilderness?
     
    #21 Heretic Hunter, Feb 5, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I have always enjoyed seeing the gospel in the Old Testament. Insofar as Hebrews goes, that was the first place that crossed my mind (but I am glad you went here first).
     
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  3. Heretic Hunter

    Heretic Hunter Active Member

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    Thank you Jon, I am edified to know that you also considered Hebrews for this study! :Biggrin

    When we prayerfully, exhaustively, carefully, and patiently read the Word of God in full context, that is when we have our senses properly trained, and allow for The Holy Spirit to teach us, as The Lord gifts us with knowledge and understanding of what it written, with discernment of what is entailed, and wisdom on how to rightly divide the Word of God, to preach and teach sound doctrine. Furthermore, we discover hidden gems, such as the case between the parallel of 1Cor 10 & Heb 3-4 as both are of the same topic, yet nuggets of details are separated, so it requires both to grasp the full sense of understanding. Not only that, but there are mulitudes of gems of this very same topic concerning the provocation in the wilderness throughout The Holy Bible, included also in the Psalms and other Prophetic Books.

    Understanding this topic to the FULL will greatly enhance understanding of End Times Prophecy, including understanding of Revelation. Moreover, by reading the entirety of The Holy Bible, that is when what is written in the New Testament really comes alive in so many ways, with full grasp of the prophesies concerning Jesus' birth, death, and ressurection, and all other details, including understanding of the referenced Prophetic Books, by The Lord and His chosen Apostles. I am writing this here to mutually ecourage you and our other Brothers with excitement to trust The Lord and read in faith what is written with urgency and diligence as there is a growing famine for the hearing of the words of the Lord per Amos 8:11

    I will share the passage of the provocation that took place in the wilderness in my next post.
     
    #23 Heretic Hunter, Feb 5, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I came to this thread late, it was on page 2. But I would like to offer my views on this passage, 1 Corinthians 10. First let me post the NASB translation, which is in my opinion, the best one to base a study on. Of course other translations that differ must be considered.

    Avoid Israel’s Mistakes
    10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

    6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” 8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them [b]did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them [c]did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them [d]did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

    14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. 16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the [e]bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one [f]bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one [g]bread. 18 Look at [h]the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? 19 What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we?

    23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but that of his [i]neighbor. 25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for the earth is the Lord’s, and [j]all it contains. 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake; 29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?

    31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.

    Footnotes:
    1. 1 Corinthians 10:4 I.e. the Messiah
    2. 1 Corinthians 10:8 Lit acted immorally
    3. 1 Corinthians 10:9 Lit made trial
    4. 1 Corinthians 10:10 Lit grumbled
    5. 1 Corinthians 10:16 Lit loaf
    6. 1 Corinthians 10:17 Lit loaf
    7. 1 Corinthians 10:17 Lit loaf
    8. 1 Corinthians 10:18 Lit Israel according to the flesh
    9. 1 Corinthians 10:24 Lit the other
    10. 1 Corinthians 10:26 Lit its fullness
    So as to avoid making this first contribution too long, let us consider the first section:

    10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

    1) "to be unaware" means to be ignorant or without understanding.
    2) "brethren" refers to our male and female siblings in Christ. Siblings is a preferred translation for there is no difference between male and female in Christ, whereas "brothers and sisters" draws a distinction.
    3) Under the cloud refers to the "pillar of cloud" that lead and "covered" those in the Exodus.
    4) Passed through the sea that Moses parted in the Exodus.
    5) baptized into Moses refers to being immersed in Moses' guidance and provision
    6) Note the spiritual "food" rather than spiritual "meat" because manna was not meat.
    7) Christ or Messiah, or Deliverer, the Second Person of the Trinity.
    8) Because they doubted and grumbled and turned from God's chosen leader (Moses) they did not enter the promised land.
     
    #24 Van, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  5. Heretic Hunter

    Heretic Hunter Active Member

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    Hi Van! :) Welcome to the study of 1Cor 10, and thank you for your contribution. I have carefully read your post and have noticed the position that "meat" was changed to "food" with a reason given that "manna was not meat". Note that in 1Cor 10, there is absolutely no mention or reference given in the passage the manna that was eaten, and/or even identified or defined as being that "same spiritual meat".

    With there being more than enough controversy about Bible Translations, I want to avoid any debate on the topic, but instead my onjective is to use The Holy Bible, most expressedly, the King James Bible as the template for this study and unpacking of 1Cor 10. I contend that in 1Cor 10 in The Holy Bible that there are what I term as "keys" that refer to "key passages", such as is the case with the subject of the Provocation. It is my intention to highlight those keys with the referenced passages soon; Both from 1Cor 10 and the parallel passage of Heb 3-4 Already, we have confirmed in a previous post that the "same spiritual meat" is not the "manna," but instead, it is the Gospel. As the Study progresses with the unpacking of the "keys" and "key passages" there will be other passages from The Holy Bible that tie into the subject of the Gospel vs. "manna" that will more than affirm and leave no doubt of the fact that "manna" is not the "same spiritual meat", but is indeed the Gospel.


    Part 1 per "same spiritual meat" = Gospel: Study & Discussion of 1Corinthians 10

    Part 2 per "same spiritual meat" = Gospel: Study & Discussion of 1Corinthians 10


    I desire and hope that you will participate with us for the long haul, and be patient in doing an exhaustive study of this passage. And, after the other posts per the "keys" and "key passages" are completed, along with the full confirmation that the "same spiritual meat" is the Gospel, and after we have completed the full unpacking of the rest of these passages using The Holy Bible, then we will do a parallel comparison between The Holy Bible and the N.A.S.B. to show how the "keys" were destroyed, and has led to confusion on the overall passage.

    In the meantime, Can you find the passage in Exodus that Apostle Paul referred to in 1Corinthians 10 concerning the Provocation in the wilderness?
     
    #25 Heretic Hunter, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The OT, and the teaching of the Apostles!
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The steak is all;; 66 books of the canon!
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Heretic Hunter, sorry that you think only the KJV presents the correct "keys." As with "meat" its a mistranslation in my view.

    Even the NKJV translates the word as food. One of the early steps in bible study is to look up the key words and to look at the various translation choices. If you look at 1 Corinthians 10:3, almost all modern versions translate the word as "food."

    For another illustration, look at:
    Mat 14:15
    And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.

    All things used for nourishment are victuals, or in modern English "food."
    victuals - Dictionary Definition Victuals are anything that can be used as food.
     
    #28 Van, Feb 6, 2019
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Good Grief, dozens of versions translate the word as "food." And you think the mistranslation in the KJV is valid. Even the KJV translated the word as "victuals" which is another word for food.

    Take a look at Mark 7:18-19, and ask yourself, did Jesus declare all foods clean (whatever goes in) or only meats?
     
    #29 Van, Feb 6, 2019
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  10. Heretic Hunter

    Heretic Hunter Active Member

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    Thank you for your response here. :) I have a lot to say about the subject, but as I mentioned in my previous reply, I want to reserve that for after the exhaustive study is completed. If you would like to follow along with your N.A.S.B. that is fine. But for this study, I have focused intents to make crucial points that are related to a separate discussion on another thread about how the world is being deceived into eating things sacrificed unto idols/devils, and other points, of which the clues that I shared with you are also a major aspect, as there is a growing famine for the hearing of the words of the LORD.

    In remaining focused to the study, Did you have a chance to prayerfully and carefully review Exodus 12 & Hebrews 4:12 per the Gospel? What are your thoughts on the passage? Also, Can you find the passage in Exodus that Apostle Paul referred to in 1Corinthians 10 concerning the Provocation in the wilderness?
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another deflection, but the NKJV has food, the WEB (Majority Text) has food and so forth.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No, I provided my thoughts on the first part of chapter 10. If we cannot discuss the meaning of the first 6 verses, and must instead conflate the Old Covenant with the New, I think my input will be viewed as less than useful.

    I did not see any response to my question in post #31. There is study and then there is lack of study.
     
  13. Heretic Hunter

    Heretic Hunter Active Member

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    So, with what you shared, are you retaining the position that "spiritual food" is reference to "manna"? because of the N.A.S.B. Footnotes?

    The False Prophet, Jehovah's Witnesses use that word also in their re-written Bible, the New World Translation of 1Cor 10

    "3 and all ate the same spiritual food 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ." - N.W.T.


    So, if I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that "spiritual food" is a reference to "manna"? What convinces you of that interpretation? What evidence can you provide for your argument? Do you disagree that Apostle Paul made references to the Old Testament passages? If "No", then how can you conclude that "spiritual food" is equal to the "physical food" of "manna"? If "Yes", then how can you have the position to suggest that going to the referenced Old Testment passages conflates the New Testament passage of 1Cor 10?

    Furthermore, in all fairness, I did post the question about finding the passage in Exodus per the Provocation before you decided to join the Study. Do you disagree that the provocation is a subject addressed by Apostle Paul in 1Cor 10? If you disagree, please explain why you hold to your position, with your own words, using the Bible. But, if you do agree, Can the passage be fully understood without fully understanding the referenced passages? Furthermore, are you able to answer the question that I had asked?
     
    #33 Heretic Hunter, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    My thoughts were expressed in my initial post. and yes, as I said, I believe the spiritual food refers to the divinely supplied manna. We can consider whether the manna carries with it a deeper spiritual message beyond physical such as a reference to the gospel or the Old Covenant opportunity for salvation, which would be their "good news."

    Why did I think the spiritual food referred to manna? Because that was the spiritually prepared food (angel food so to speak.) Yes I saw several commentaries which also thought the reference was to manna, perhaps as a "type" for a deeper message.

    What did I mean by conflating the two Covenants. Certainly parts of the gospel are presented in the Old Testament, but the full disclosure of the gospel of Christ is found only in the New Testament. As Hebrews 11 says, the OT saints obtained approval by faith. They believed God and trusted in His love.

    Verse 5 does indeed present their difficulty. I posted: 8) Because they doubted and grumbled and turned from God's chosen leader (Moses) they did not enter the promised land. The story can be found in Numbers 13, 14 and following. Numbers 14:22 may be the verse you want.
     
  15. Heretic Hunter

    Heretic Hunter Active Member

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    As soon as the Study of 1Cor 10 is concluded, I intend to address that subject on a separate thread. In the meantime, do you have anything to contribute to this Study that is related to the context of the passage, and not related to the debate of Bible Translations?
     
  16. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps you sometimes attempt to read a different meaning into words used in the 1611 KJV than the actual way that those words were used in the 1500's by English Bible translators and in 1611 by the KJV translators.

    Some KJV defenders have claimed that the 1828 Webster's Dictionary gives correct definitions of words in the KJV according to the meaning that they had in 1611.
    The first definition for meat in the 1828 Webster's is "food in general; any thing eaten for nourishment, either by man or beast."
    The third definition for meat is as follows: "In Scripture, spiritual food; that which sustains and nourishes spiritual life or holiness."
     
  17. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The makers of the KJV borrowed much from the 1560 Geneva Bible.
    At 1 Corinthians 10:3, the 1560 Geneva Bible has a letter b before "spiritual meat" and the note for this letter b is as follows: "That is, Manna, which was the outward sign or sacrament of spiritual grace."

    For the chapter or content headings at 1 Corinthians 10, the 1611 edition of the KJV has "The Sacraments of the Jews."

    The 1657 English translation of the 1637 Dutch Annotations upon the whole Bible has the following annotation on "spiritual meat" at 1 Corinthians 10:3 --"spiritual meat: namely, the manna, which is called spiritual meat, because it served the Israelites, not only for corporal food, but also to be an extraordinary sign of the flesh of Christ"

    1 Corinthians 10:2-3 in 1842 edition of the Holy Bible
    And were all immersed to Moses in the cloud and the sea;
    And all ate the same spiritual food;
     
    #37 Logos1560, Feb 6, 2019
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  18. Heretic Hunter

    Heretic Hunter Active Member

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    Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
     
  19. Heretic Hunter

    Heretic Hunter Active Member

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    Exo 16:1 And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.


    Exo 16:2 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:


    Exo 16:3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.


    Exo 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.


    Exo 16:5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.
     
  20. Heretic Hunter

    Heretic Hunter Active Member

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    Psa 106:7 Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.

    See EXODUS 10-15 FULL CONTEXT
     
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