Suspension Looms for attending the High School Prom

All I can say is that I guarantee you that some of you don't know high school boys or girls very well at all. You guys live a very sheltered life. Many girls know how to work their s@xuality, and boys know how to fantasize and imagine. and the whole world seems to know what many Christians don't see. The children of darkness are wiser than the children of light.

To talk about living in a one room house is to completely miss the point. To talk about your daughter seeing you kiss your wife is to miss the point. And no, your children don't need to see your kiss your spouse in an erotic way. Why would that even be thought up? And yes, girls need to be hugged by their dads more, and dads need to teach their girls how to dress.


I would recommend C. J. Mahaney's book on worldliness. It addresses the topic of modesty in a very good way.

So to answer blackbird, focusing on the signed statement (which is important in the immediate instance) is to focus on the wrong thing. That's typical of many fundamentalists. They are focused on the externals, the wrong things, and they miss the actual point.

 

In the book Right from Wrong McDowell makes the claim that 25% of the teenagers in church youth groups are participating in immorality with others in the youth group. The same things you wrote about are present in the world and that includes seminaries. I worked in maintenance in the seminary I attended and we were told that we would see everything that is present in the world and we did. It was amazing how much pornography we found in the apartments and rooms we went into to do repairs.

I taught high school for four years and took students on overnight trips and many other things. I found that students will do what they believe the leaders expect. Too often their leaders are not consistent in what they expect and students know it. The first year that I took several students on a two-day trip I was previously warned by some faculty to reconsider the trip because of what might happen. Before we left on the trip I had students and their parents sign a form which stated that if they were caught with anything illegal or did anything illegal they would be taken to the nearest police station and it would be their personal responsibility to get home.
Each school has its own policies. My daughter went to a public elementary school that did not allow Halloween costumes and other imagery posted on the walls.

I do believe that too many pastors are not direct enough from the pulpit about these kinds of issues. They talk as though they are addressing older people and not the young people. There have been numerous of times that I had frank discussions with young people about these issues. Young people want answers and they also want to know the proper boundaries not just simplistic short answers that satisfy the choir of adults. By establishing boundaries they know what is right and wrong and they are given tools to handle situations they may be placed in. They are freed when they can give high quality truthful answers to their friends and people they meet which appeal to both Christians and non-Christians. They are empowered when they receive carefully thought out answers to the issues they are struggling with. They are constantly receiving messages from their friends and church members which are too often not the truth but a rationalistic discussion that does not stem from the truth but only addresses the end result of a physical relationship. They not only need to know the truth intellectually but they need to be empowered to live it out.

When I was 18, I started working at a place of employment during the summer to help pay for college. The men began to tease me about issues knowing that I had just become a Christian. I began to leave the place where we ate when they started their vulgar discussions. In my midst some of the older Christians “stepped up to the plate.” On one occasion my boss who was a strong Christian walked in and listened for a short time and then began telling them the truth from the Bible. I saw a man be a man and began giving them the gospel. I was shocked to see what happened among them. It was as if a still picture had been taken at that moment and lasted for about 20 minutes. Most of the men did not eat and hardly moved during that time. Later I found out that my boss had led a number of the men in the plant to Christ and was leading them in Bible study. I heard many testimonies about how Christ had transformed their lives and it was my boss whom God used.

 

Why didn't the school committee share the same understanding? Whatever was signed must have had some language that was not concrete, else the committee would not have been involved.

 

oy vey...well having attended a school with similiar leanings I can say that the young man should know what he signed up for and should submit to the authority over him.

That said, I absolutely don't understand why so many Baptists make such a big deal over dances and prom. We all know why Baptists are opposed to premarital s3x...it could lead to dancing.

One of the prices we (as committed Christians) pay is subordinating our desires and will to those who lead us. While I certainly don't see eye-to-eye with this academy, it is this young man's obligation to follow the instructions of his leader.

 

I can't speak for others but I think it is a big deal because two unmarried people should not have their bodies that close to each other in that kind of contact. The only question is why you disagree. You really think two unmarried people should hold each other that close in that way?

That's just a dumb thing to say. We should be opposed to premarital s@x because God said it was wrong.

 

When the principal signed the permission slip then wanted undo his word and then the so called school board went way overboard, they were teaching the students a lesson that they will need to know.

They were teaching them a lesson in dishonesty and vengeful reactions. Now this makes me wonder why anyone would think this was a Christian school.

 

That is your opinion which I believe falls short of the core issue. I never kiss my wife the same way in front of others as I do in the privacy of our own room. Ever watch a man with his new bride in a wedding? To think the way you do is to place more emphasis on the issue than should be placed on it. To think that kissing my wife in front of my daughter is erotic is to completely miss the point of outwardly showing affection to my wife in my home. Kissing my wife does not need to come with erotic overtones and messages as you suggest. I have a friend who kisses his children and when he was growing up his family did the same thing. Imagine the example that was to his friends. I can just imagine what the friends thought, "Man it must be nice to have a mom and dad who love each other."

You missed the point about the one room house. Having a puritanical American theology is not always consistent with scripture. Too many people think that we must be distanced from one another to remain pure which is simply not true. Boundaries must be established which may include distance. However, distance alone does not address the proper attitude. The internet has demonstrated that.

I have been in construction for many years and working on a building when the only person home was a man's wife. There have been times when the lady watched and said things to me in such a way that it became obvious what she wanted. The circumstances may change but my attitude goto me goes with me. I must be prepared at all times. It is a spiritual war not just a series of circumstances. Many a man has failed who grew up in a home where a lot of dos and don'ts existed but the issues were never really addressed.

The home is where love must be perfected and lived out. Our children need to see proper affection in the home and see humility with proper attitudes. They need to know their parents love each other deeply. I know what my daughter's friends think. Many times my daughter has left to go do something with her friends and gives us a big hug in front of her friends.

The past three years I have dealt with those who are divorced and it is healthy for them to see a healthy family in action. The daughter of one of them enjoys coming to our home because of how she feels when she is with us. The message of Christ is reaching the home because we have spent time with them and invited them to do things with us.

I have never forgotten the first time I experienced life in a Christian home. When I started seeing how godly men treated their wives in their home I knew I wanted that for my home when I got married.

Addressing circumstances may solve circumstancial problems temporarily but addressing the heart issues go where ever we go.

 

I was in a business where it would have been very easy to cheat people without them knowing it. Some of the most dishonest people I knew in that business were those who attended those same kind of churches. The way I see it is that those people have troubles with fears and seek outside controls to help control their fears inside. They would fall apart if they actually left those controls and decided to live their life under the control of outside constraints.

I would question their wisdom in their inconsistency among administrators.
When I tell young people why I do not drink it reaches the heart with godly principles from scripture. Addressing circumstances alone does nothing but create multiple problems and issues.

States address the speed limit by posting a speed limit sign. If the speed were 30 mph they could post numerous signs stating what the speed limit is not. It would not be 29, It would not be 28, etc. That is too often what teachers in the church do. They spend a lot of time on the don'ts rather than God's word which does a perfect balanced job on the dos and don'ts.

 

So to think that we as men should not expose ourselves to temptation and should not protect our young men from temptation is more emphasis than should be placed on it? That's confusing to me.

I didn't say it was wrong to kiss your wife in front of your children. I think I was clear about what I said. I kiss my wife in from of my kids all the time. I kiss her in front of others on occasion. That's clearly not the point.

 

I plan on hugging my mom tomorrow for mother's day...probably my kids, too.
Also, so much for greeting someone with a "holy kiss", too...

 

How is that relevant here? No one is talking about hugging your mother or your kids. Please read my comments and respond to what I actually said, if you wish. I specifically referred to a particular kind of body contact.

AGain, how is that relevant? You think most prom dates are engaging in holy kisses as described in the Bible?

 

So much for any kind of humor with Pastor Larry. Talk about dry...

 

I have a great sense of humor. That just didn't seem funny.

 

How is it different than being close in an elevator? or a line for a movie? or at a sports game when the crowd is brimming?

I think its a matter of degrees.

The Scriptures aren't prudish. The Scriptures aren't some Victorian level of personal "sanctity." Relationships in Scripture are messy. I just don't think that we can attach some random supra-puritanical value and miss the point.

Honestly I have no problem with proms and dances. I enjoyed them growing up and understand all the details. Teenagers are going to think "dirty things" if you are wearing an evening gown or a denim, ankle length dress. It comes with the territory. What does matter is how they respond.

See this is what I don't get! How is it you can call me dumb and not get called on the floor?

Besides, it was a joke.

That said you and I have very different theology and beliefs about non-essentials. I understand where you are coming from and, frankly, it is the kind of beliefs that I ran away from because of the dogmatism. In our interactions you've never been cordial. Therefore I ask that we avoid each other for the sake of the unity of our brethern. Thanks.

 

Out of curiosity, what about a couple, yet unmarried, but already engaged, holding each other 'tightly' and kissing, for another example?

Would that not also be inappropriate, in the scenario you are here laying out?

Is this "godly" or "ungodly" by your definition?

The problem here as I see it, at least as outlined in the article, comes from the 'after-the-fact' part of this, IMO. Whether or not this is 'appropriate behavior' is one thing, although it certainly should be considered by the individuals involved, I would say.

But "appropriate" does not equal "prohibited" or necessarily determine whether this is "godly" or "ungodly", at least according to any dictionary I happen to currently possess.

Ed

 

You really don't see a different between close dancing and being in an elevator or a line for a movie? Come on now ... Surely you aren't serious.

No one says the Scriptures are prudish. Howver, it is clear that the Scriptures place a high priority on sexual purity. The messy relationships in Scripture highlight my point ... that things are messy because people do unwise things. Why should we not teach young ladies to be modest, and young men to be careful and to avoid temptation? What is your complaint about that?

But seeing a girl in a burkha is not going to evoke the same thoughts as seeing a girl in a bikini or a strapless prom dress. I am not saying we should wear burkhas. I am pointing out what all of us know ... that what we as men see have an affect on what we think. I am not letting men off the hook. We are responsible. But let's not let ladies off the hook either.

Yes, but why put yourself in a situation of temptation?

It's why we put plug covers on electrical outlets with children. We could simply try to teach them to respond properly, but why take the chance when so much is at stake.

I don't know anyone who was ruined for life because they never slow danced before they were married. I know a lot of people for whom that was the beginning of a long road of trouble.

Let me ask you this: Would you want your wife dancing with another man like teens dance at the prom? Would she want you dancing with another woman that way? Why or why not?

Where did I call you dumb? (Hint: I didn't. I said the statement was dumb).

But not a very funny one because it makes light of something Scripture takes very seriously. It is a typical caricature that belies a failure to grasp what the real issues are.

Yes, perhaps. I am a big believer that the Bible alone defines the essentials.

You ran away from teaching purity and avoiding temptation? Why?

I don't recall any conversations with you. Perhaps you are oversensitive. This is a discussion board. There's no lack of cordiality here, at least from me.

Feel free. You are the one who responded to me. I doubt their unity will be affected by our conversations.

 

Bad idea. Dangerous. It arouses passions that cannot be legitimately satisfied.

Yes, I would strongly encourage them not to.

Unwise I think is the word I have used.

As I recall, the word "godly" I used about whether or not this type of behavior would have a young man or woman be godly. So far, I haven't seen anyone even attempt to answer that kind of question. I have, however, been attacked for the mere suggestion that dancing and dressing immodestly is unwise.

Funny how the issue got lost in the personal attacks.

It is never appropriate to be ungodly. But not all things that are inappropriate are necessarily ungodly. They may simply be unwise. I can be in a house alone with someone else's wife and do nothing that is ungodly. But it is inappropriate because it is unwise.

I don't have a big problem with a teen going to the prom. My issue is with unmarried people slow-dancing, having their bodies in that kind of contact. I think my wife would object to me doing that with another woman. I would object to her doing it with another man. Why? Because that kind of body contact belongs in a marriage.

Teens say, "We can stop." Here's new: You weren't meant to stop.

 

I agree with where you are going with this. We are constantly exposed to temptation. What we do with that is the issue.

When I was many years younger I thought becoming a medical doctor and struggled with the very issue you are addressing. I saw other Christians who were doctors and wondered how they dealt with the issues. What we tell young people needs to be very carefully weighed.

In churches we have many female secretaries who work with male pastors. That can be a serious issue as well.

There are numerous temptations that are unavoidable and we need to be alert. If we are alert to the ways of Satan then I believe we are less likely to step into his snares.

I misunderstood then.

Sometime you should attend a well done prom. It is much different than you suggest.

What I meant is that we must make sure we interpret scripture in light of its historical context and not in light of our American theology. Our American theology can often be much more of a surface, circumstancial approach to theology rather than what scripture actually teaches. In working and traveling to other countries my theology has often been challenged and it forced me to take a closer look at what the Bible actually teaches. In being challenged I have gotten several surprises beyond what I thought. It has helped me to deal with the core issues and what scripture actually teaches.

More importantly it was not that they failed by allowing themselves to be controlled by the circumstances but they failed spiritually. They were not focused on God. Daniel did not fail in the lion’s den. To say that we are powerless is not true. The longer we let time go by without naming Christ the easier it is to do things we regret later.

Like I wrote earlier about being in a home working on a house and there was a man's wife present does not mean I had to fall to her temptations. The first time it happened I was shocked. When I started talking about my wife the situation quickly changed. Our discussions from that point on were very different. I do not think that most people in that situation are happy and want another woman’s husband but rather they are frustrated and really want their own husband.

Every man has to decide ahead of time where the line must be drawn. We need to constantly be alert.

A young man does not need to participate in everything just because he is present. A lot of things in an event are determined by the leadership. When I was bicycle racing we could always find out where the race was by asking those in a tavern. Just because I walked into a tavern did not mean that I drank alcohol and participated with them. Jesus ate and dined with sinners. Remember what he was accused of?

When I walk out my door I choose to not engage in certain actions because I have a relationship with God and know that doing certain things would be stupid. On the way to the college I see quite a variety of students. It is my choice what I do and fill my mind with.

I thought the same thing. Perhaps it was not the student who wanted to attend the school and he was possibly coerced by the parents. It is possible that he is in a state of rebellion or it is possible that the school is not consistent in its teaching and approach to what is right and wrong. Rather we must teach what is consistent with the character of God and what scripture teaches.

Apparently he has much opportunity to engage in immoral activity if he chose because he has a girl friend. Going to a school event is much better than being alone with a girl friend. Yet I find few who would have much of an issue with him having a girl friend. Apparently the couple had no issues about going to the prom. Often proms in schools are not so much the issue of dancing, but rather a social event that is highly promoted much like a homecoming game. In more recent years, I have not seen the same attitude toward dances that once was so prevalent among people your age when they were in high school. Today a lot more activity goes on outside of school than what once did.

When my daughter went to the prom she went with several other friends from school. All of them were top students. Some of the parents helped the girls to have a good time. The girls had a nice meal at one of the homes and then went to the prom. She went mostly because her friends were going. The following year she decided not to go because she did not see it as a big thing. At that age it is more important who their friends are then who their parents are. They listen to their friends a lot. My wife and I were always available to her and her friends. Her friends were always welcome in our home.

People struggle with things as they go through life. The answers are not always found in our personal list of do's and don'ts but are found in scripture. All we can do is to advise them using wisdom. We must pray for our children. Some of their choices may not be the best but we must encourage them along the way to use wisdom by giving it out liberally to them and showing them the way. Most people are looking for examples to guide them.

Just as we do, young people have real issues and they are looking for real answers that are well thought out and filled with wisdom. Our answers can cause our children to engage us or walk away from us.

There are students I know who I would not trust walking out the front door because it seems like trouble finds them and others I would trust a lot because they are good for others and keep them from getting into trouble.

We must be careful to not just win the war and lose the battle by our attitude and actions.

 

Most likely this young man is "so in love" (sarcasm intended) just like most teenagers are. She's the only girl for him and he's the only boy for her. But, if he doesn't go to prom with her she's going to go with someone else. And, despite the fact that he might be suspended, she's more important and he can't picture his love going to the prom with someone else.

Actually, we need more facts to make an objective judgment about this situation.