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  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    T. Total devavity, as in utter impotence, and absolute inability of a Spiritually dead sinner, who lost any Spiritual capibility, in Adam.

    The Human Race inherited a Nature of sin, from the First man, Adam, who died, Spiritually, in the Garden, as God Predicted.

    All human being are dead, in trespasses and sins.

    In Adam all died and are Totally Depraved of any strength, power, decision making, or thinking, other than to sin.

    Denials of Unconditional Election,
    Limited Attonement,
    Irresistible Grace,
    and Preservation & Perseverance of the Saints, arises from a position of unbelief in Total Depravity, by what The Bible calls, 'unbelievers'.

    The soul that is Totally Depraved must be Brought to the position of being a Law breaker, by the Schoolmaster, to recognize their undone, lost, blind condition, first
     
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  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Sin is not natural. Its is UNnatural. And if you are so fully corrupted as to have your good nature destroyed, then indeed you are destroyed and there is nothing to SAVE there.

    God gives an actual list of consequences for sin in scripture. The idea that you could never do right in God's eyes would certainly top the list.

    Show where scripture teaches God took away man's capacity to do anything good and made man totally depraved.
     
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I can't do that.

    If you haven't can't see it.

    The soul that is Totally Depraved must be Brought to the position of being a Law breaker, by the Schoolmaster, to recognize their undone, lost, blind condition, first.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "I can't do that. "

    If you cannot show scripture that teaches this false doctrine then maybe you should not teach false doctrine.


    "The soul that is Totally Depraved must be Brought to the position of being a Law breaker, by the Schoolmaster, to recognize their undone, lost, blind condition, first."

    Nonsense, Even nonsense under Calvinism. According to Calvinist theology there is ZERO condition, you might even hear the term UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

    Before the foundation, before you were even created God either Love or Hated you. IF God hated you first, forever damned.

    Just like a person has no choice over their skin color. SOME of us would say it is pretty evil to treat a person unfairly over their skin color.

    Do you think this is evil?


    IN THE EXACT SAME WAY. Calvinist God will only save and damn person who has no choice over their "ELECT" or "DAMNED" Skin.

    Do you think this is evil?


    Pharisees, the spiritual nazis who always thought themselves chosen above all. Will always have theology based on bigotry That is it is US vs them. ALL who believe as I do and is comformed to my way is Good. Anything different is evil.

    Its always combative stance of there you are HOLIER than THOU. I'm Holier than you are, God says so.


    Whereas genuine Christianity doesn't step on people and points to the person's worth. It tends to be selfless trying to help ANOTHER person get right with God. Not a selfish ME CENTERNED JUDGEMENT of others and Self proclaimed holiness.
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "The soul that is Totally Depraved must be Brought to the position of being a Law breaker, by the Schoolmaster, to recognize their undone, lost, blind condition, first."

    You are asking me to Preform The Work and Activity of The Holy Spirit.

    "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9.

    Paul was not the least bit concerned about his Spiritually Dead STATE BEFORE GOD, prior to The Holy Spirit Bringing Conviction to his soul.

    Then his confidence in and dependance upon and hope placed into his being 'alive', was Slain and Cut to his deceived and desperately wicked heart and carnal mind, of the finite reasoning, employing a sin-cursed lack of ability, in his flesh.

    Paul 'died'.

    Paul was Given the Ability to comprehend his lost and helpless Dead State and absolute depravity.

    That is The Activity of God.

    You must Be Brought by The Opperation of The Holy Spirit, to the position of being a Law Breaker.

    You must find yourself taking your place as a Hellbound sinner, with The Wrath of God Abiding Over you, and to have 'died', under the Teaching of The Word of God, by God.

    I can't do it.
     
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  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I have never understood total depravity to mean God took away man's capacity to do anything good and God "made" man totally depraved.

    My understanding of total depravity is that man is unable to reconcile his relationship with God on his own, and cannot even understand how that relationship is marred so as to desire its reconciliation.

    Peace to you
     
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  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    He cannot do that because there are no Scriptures that state that God took away man's capacity to do anything good, and made man totally depraved.

    Mankind did both of those things by ourselves.
    The only thing God did, was to give us over to it ( Romans 1:18-32 ).
     
  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    In the Calvinist's theology God is totally sovereign in all things except the question of the origin of sin. In this case Calvinists teach that God looked down through the corridors of time, saw that man was going to sin, and allowed him do it.

    Man's first sin became an inheritable trait that totally changed the nature of man forever. Man's free will was gone and he could only do evil from that point in time forward. According to the Calvinist, God was a willing spectator to these events, simply watching to see that man would do what God had already foreseen.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe God looks down cooridors of time to gain information about anything. He simply knows everything and has always known everything.

    Peace to you
     
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  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    He is totally sovereign with respect to having a say, as King, regarding any event or action that takes place either in Heaven, or on earth.
    Nebuchadnezzar, king of the most powerful empire on the earth at that time, realized this after 7 years of wandering around, eating grass as an animal and deprived of his intelligence:

    " And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:
    35 and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
    36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
    37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works [are] truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase."
    ( Daniel 4:34-37 )

    Read the words of the Bible carefully...

    He can either prevent or allow something to happen, or put it into a person's heart to do it ( Revelation 17:17 ).
    He can take the most powerful king on the earth, and reduce him to a wandering animal, if He so chooses.

    What He has revealed in Scripture is what He has desired to show His children.
    He reveals Himself to them, and what He has revealed can be trusted.
    It is also totally against the natural man's, "common sense", and it is meant to be ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).

    God cannot be put into a "box" whose boundaries are determined by what men think they should be, according to our will, our desires and our corrupt ideas.
    Just to show He is not bound by our ideas of Who He should be, He does things to show just how much He despises the limits we put upon Him...

    and to establish that His will is paramount.


    In the end, sin is all on us.
    Grace, mercy and kindness in the midst of our rebellion, are all on Him.:)
     
    #10 Dave G, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    God knew in advance of man's fall into sin... and in His grace, prepared a people to save for His mercy's sake.

    If you've truly believed on Him for the forgiveness of your sins, then this should present no problem.
    Either one believes His word, or they do not ( John 8:47, John 10:26-27 ).

    If you do, then you are the recipient of a wonderful gift...eternal life.
    A much better life than this one. :)

    Man's first sin included eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

    Through it, we became fully aware of both good and evil, its consequences and its "lure".
    Mankind fell in love with sin, and progressed from liking it, to loving it...regardless of the consequences.

    Those that do not believe the accounts in Genesis and Romans 1 argue that sin is not as pervasive as God's word tells us...that it does not corrupt the entire being of a man.
    Again, one either believes the words on the page, or one does not.
    One either sees God's word describing our situation as being hopeless and helpless, or one does not.

    Our desperate need for a Saviour, or not.
    The lesson in both of those accounts is, man willfully gave in, and God gave us over to that which we came to love.
    Man's free will decision was and is to sin, and to love it.

    The adamant "non-Calvinist" does not believe Scripture with regard to mankind's spiritually dead condition towards God, which leads to the foundation of our need for a Saviour...without Him changing us, we are rotten to the core and ultimately untrustworthy.

    Our "moral compass" is broken, and we sail around fully aware of it, not caring.
    Wherever the "ship" goes, we don't care...as long as it's not toward repentance.

    God simply "resets the compass", and the "ship" is then able to steer towards God, and away from disobedience.
    Having an eternal relationship with Him would be impossible without a heart change.



    To me, the argument has always been about accepting God's actual words, and man's ideas about God's word.
     
    #11 Dave G, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    According to the ever-resistant "non-Calvinist", instead of God taking an active part in determining who is saved, God simply sets the "ball" in motion, stands back and allows man's will and man's efforts to determine whose name is written in the Book of Life.

    To use your quoted statement above, He becomes a willing spectator, simply watching to see that man would do what he has already "foreseen".
     
    #12 Dave G, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    God is Unchangeable.

    In the Garden, Adam was innocent, but 'changeable'.

    Adam sinned, proved his existence was not Unchangeable, that Adam did not have The Unchangeable Attribute of God, and that he was not God.

    Adam died.


    * "In His particular saving work of conviction, the Holy Spirit occupies the soul more with sin itself than with punishment.

    This is an exercise of the mind to which fallen men are exceedingly averse:

    they had rather meditate on almost anything than upon their own wickedness:

    neither argument, entreaty, nor warning will induce them to do so;

    nor will Satan suffer one of his captives—

    till a mightier One comes and frees him—

    to dwell upon sin, its nature, and vileness.

    No, he constantly employs all his subtle arts to keep his victim from such occupation, and his temptations and delusions are mixed with the natural darkness and vanity of men’s hearts so as to fortify them against convictions; so that he may keep “his goods in peace ” ( Luke 11:21).

    It is by the exceeding greatness of His power that the Holy Spirit fixes the mind of a quickened and enlightened soul upon the due consideration of sin.

    Then it is that the subject of this experience cries, “my sin is ever before me” ( Psalm 51:3), for God now reproves him and “sets his sins in order” before his eyes ( Psalm 50:21).

    Now he is forced to behold them, no matter which way he turns himself.

    Feign would he cast them out of his thoughts, but he cannot:

    “the arrows” of God stick in his heart ( Job 6:4), and he cannot get rid of them.

    He now realizes that his sins are more in number than the hairs of his head ( Psalm 40:12).

    Now it is that “the grass withereth, the flower fadeth; because the Spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it ” ( Isaiah 40:7)." *

    *CHAPTER - THE SPIRIT CONVICTING

    Once Adam fell into sin, it is the Operation of The Holy Spirit that must Show Adam's offspring that the have no 'will', or 'effort', with any ability other than to 'sin', once Adam put the ball into motion and sinned, plunged the entire Human Race into sin, and they all exclusively sin, BECAUSE THE ARE BORN SINNERS.

    Thoughts that are not God's Thoughts, that are using a mind at emnity with God, is natural, as a natural fleshly descendent of Adam and can not descern Spiritual things, prior to being Quicken Alive and Born of The Spirit.
     
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Not one bit of God's Word to back up your false claims. This is totally false.
    MB
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Everything and every word of The Bible Teaches that, "the wages of sin is death".

    That is why you and I will die.

    Light has Come into the World.

    "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:19.

    Men love to deny the light, because they are in darkness and blindness and Eternal Death.

    May God Have Mercy on their souls.
     
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    None of this says man is unable to hear and understand. I admit that scripture does say that the Jews were blinded to the truth. Though the Gentiles have been granted repentance and the gospel has been sent to the Gentiles and they will hear it.
    Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
    Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
    These two verses rebuke the idea that man is some how unable to respond to the gospel. Of course man is sinful but this has no effect on His ability to come to Christ. In fact we are invited by Christ Him self.
    Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
    MB
     
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The problem is why would it be necessary to blind them if they already were so depraved they couldnt see
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    That is one of the problems with Calvinism's total depravity. They could see and hear.
    MB
     
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    For the Jewish people, their "blindness" is referring to acceptance of Jesus as their Messiah.

    The cross is ths stumbling block because scripture says ,"cursed is the man that hangs on a tree". They cannot see their Messiah as being cursed

    Peace to you
     
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  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I have news for ya, its that way for everyone.
     
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