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Featured Ten Commandments Keep them or break them?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Nov 26, 2013.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    He is right Bob. You keep telling us that we must keep the commandments to prove we are saved, but you will not tell us what that looks like in your own life. Just answer this very simple question with a yes or no and you will see the conundrum your preaching presents.......

    Bob, do you break God's commandments?
     
    #81 steaver, Dec 1, 2013
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    how many have EVER kept the law and Commandmnets of God well enough to merit right standing before God?

    Answer

    Jesus Himself....

    Only God can keep the infinite demands of the law perfectly in the manner an Infinite God demands it to be kept!

    When did you keep the Commandments well enough to merit salvation from God?
     
    #82 Yeshua1, Dec 2, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Paul asks - 'and answers" the question - "Who is at war against God's Law"??

    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    So then what is the view of those not at war against the Commandments of God?

    Thought you would never ask --



    [FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    t John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

    [/FONT]1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and     His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3


    I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
     
    #83 BobRyan, Dec 2, 2013
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8 declares those to be at war against the Law of God that claim they cannot obey it. Why in the world would I want to side with war against the Word of God???


    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    And Christ Himself calls the Ten Commandments the "Word of God"


    [FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
    ....[/FONT]


    I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance     details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
     
    #84 BobRyan, Dec 2, 2013
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I see you where answering post here Bob, you missed mine....

     
    #85 steaver, Dec 2, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Are you familiar with the concept of "sola scriptura" testing of doctrine?

    Would you let the Catholic response to a question about keeping the 2nd commandment regarding the worship of images in church - avoid the text the way you want to avoid it here?

    Did I forget to post this??


    [FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    What is worse for your speculation - is that John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

    [/FONT] 1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.     1 John 5:1-3



    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.    I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
     
    #86 BobRyan, Dec 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So then the "Baptist Confession of Faith" says.

    [FONT=&quot]Section 19
    . The Law of God     [/FONT]

    • [FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of universal obedience which was written in his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man[/FONT]

    • [FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial lawswere appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]

    • [FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]
     
    #87 BobRyan, Dec 2, 2013
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes. Are you? The Bible was not written in a vacuum. I was written to be applied. How does it apply to you?
    A complete non sequiter unless you are admitting that you are the Catholic that you need to apply this scripture to.
    Sola scripture is using the scripture and its authority in order to make personal application. Without the application the scripture is meaningless.

    How does it all apply to you?
    Do you keep it all?
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]

    Is this your application?
    The Word of God is simply your tradition. You can't properly apply it to yourself because you can't keep all the commandments of God. Therefore it is only a hypocritical tradition to do what you do, which differs from what you say you do.
    You are behind your imaginary pulpit preaching to others again--preaching about things that you cannot do.
    Can you keep all the commandments? yes or no?
    Give the answer! No side-stepping the question.
    I am so honored to be referenced here Bob (or am I)?
    Here is your main problem.
    All the RCC's, J.W.'s, Mormons, and many others can do what you just did--copy and paste scripture. In fact a four year old can do that. It isn't difficult.
    All the aforementioned cults, when the post scripture will give their own interpretation. And then you might give yours, but given your track record probably not. You don't like explanations and especially ones that are personal that involve yourself.
    All the aforementioned cults will, like you, say that they believe the Bible.
    So, who shall we believe Bob? Certainly not you! You can't tell us how these scriptures apply to you personally. Perhaps others can and will. But not you. You fail in this department miserably.

    Do you keep all the commandments. {Complete silence}
    Others may answer, but not Bob.

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
     
    #88 DHK, Dec 3, 2013
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.     1 John 5:1-3

    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


    I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

    You are in fact referenced as follows "I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) "

    As for the Bible texts quoted - there your argument against what the Bible calls "the Word of God" is imply being debunked.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #89 BobRyan, Dec 3, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Actually they can all do what you just did - ignore the details in the scripture that refute your argument - cling to man-made-traditions "instead" and then make up some straw man.

    A simple test easy enough for all to see.

    When it comes to the 2nd commandment against using images in worship - all your flimsy any-ol-excuse and misdirection arguments evaporates - even for Evangelicals. You would argue the validity of this commandment with any Catholic who cared to ignore it the way you insist on ignoring others.

    The very same excuses you offer here - would be equally available to the Catholic in that scenario - and like I am doing now you would claim it is a hollow excuse and not Bible exegesis, testing traditions by the Bible etc.

    Everyone can see this point - and it is so obvious to you that though it has been raised at least half a dozen times - you avoid it like it is radioactive.

    Yes. - I have stated that all over the place.

    But I have not claimed to be sinless just as you obviously would not claim to be sinless before expecting the 2nd commandment to be taken seriously.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #90 BobRyan, Dec 3, 2013
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    As I mentioned elsewhere, a four year old can do what you just did--copy and paste. It doesn't take a lot of intellect to do that. But you don't apply what you post.
    In the last two scriptures above, write or answer your own application:

    Are you subject to the law of God Bob? Are you?
    If so, how? How much of the time are you subject to the law of God?
    Which law? Define it.
    Describe how you believe you are subject to the law of God if you truly believe it.

    If you don't believe that you are subject to the law, and you can't explain how you are, then you are nothing but a hypocrite spouting off words without meaning. Is this how the SDA operates?
     
    #91 DHK, Dec 3, 2013
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The saints have the Law of God written in the heart - under the new Covenant according to Hebrews 8.

    The saints "establish the Law of God" by "our Faith" rather than abolishing it - Rom 3:31.

    What "matters" to the saints is "keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

    The saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus". Rev 14:12.

    The saints do not claim God's Law is "burdensome" but they SHOW by their obedience to God's Commandments that they do in fact LOVE God AND Love the people of God. 1John 5:1-4.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.     1 John 5:1-3

    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


    As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.
     
    #92 BobRyan, Dec 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2013
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    A totally meaningless post.

    All who read this post can readily see that Bob is unable to take the Scripture and apply it to himself.

    Bob, do you keep the law? Yes or no?

    Bob, as you just posted, Are you subject to the law of God? Yes or no?
     
    #93 DHK, Dec 3, 2013
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the moral law of God - of course.

    And of course (complete silence) until we get "another repeat" of the question. (DHK Ducking the point made above - of course. :) )



    How sad that you resort to this method.

    in any case - the previous answer stands - are you through ducking the point made above?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #94 BobRyan, Dec 3, 2013
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I stand on the "Word of God" on this one - though you will probably find that approach to be "meaningless".



    How many more times would you like those texts posted that speak to the saints and the Law of God?

    A dozen??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #95 BobRyan, Dec 3, 2013
  16. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected New Member

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    No one does. This is nonsense.
     
    #96 thisnumbersdisconnected, Dec 3, 2013
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Sin is the transgression of the Law. If you yourself break God's commandments, then why do you preach keeping God's commandments proves salvation? According to your own admission then, you yourself cannot be saved, for you break God's commandments.
     
    #97 steaver, Dec 3, 2013
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is very meaningless.
    A dozen cults, a dozen religions, a dozen denominations, etc., will all take the same texts and interpret them a dozen different ways. Therefore your methodology is completely meaningless.

    Simply posting a text without personal application is meaningless. Does it mean the same thing to you as an IFB or are you along the same lines of interpretation as a Mormon? How can I know unless you give your own personal application--what it means to you?
    Of course, Mormons believer that they will all become a god. Godhood is theirs to achieve, as manhood was once God's. But unless you give a personal application of the scripture I can just assume that you believe the same way that they do, for they also say they believe the Bible. Is that right?
     
    #98 DHK, Dec 3, 2013
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The moral law, as defined in Romans 2:14,15, has been defined by your self as the Ten Commandments. Correct? I agree with the exception of the Sabbath, the keeping of which I do not find either moral or immoral but amoral.
    I don't believe you keep any of these commandments.

    Let's take a few of them and see.
    1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me--the sin of idolatry.
    The definition of idolatry is anything that comes between you and God. It is not simply a graven image like the Hindus worship.

    Paul, in 1Cor.10, recounts the many blessings that Israel had as they were led out of Egypt and through the wilderness to the Promised Land. But on the way they kept on rebelling. What does Paul call it:
    1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
    7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
    --First note that it is written for our example that we should learn from them.
    Second, verse 6 condemns them for their sin of lusting.
    Third, verse 7, tells us that they were idolaters referring to the same sins.

    Summing it up, and also referring back to verse 7 Paul says:
    1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
    --This is addressing the Corinthians, who were proud and covetous. They were committing idolatry.

    Again:
    Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

    Idolatry is allowing anything to come between you and God. It could be your computer, cell phone, family, business, etc.
    In the parable of the Great Supper there were three excuses that were given:
    I have purchased some land, and I must go see it.
    I have purchased five yoke (or ten) oxen, and I must go and prove or try them.
    I have married a wife and therefore cannot come.
    The areas of commerce and real-estate, materialism, and personal affections were put ahead of Christ. They had become idols in these lives. Christ later said of them: "None of these shall eat of my supper."

    The last warning and word of encouragement given by John is:
    1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

    This comes right out of the blue just after he says:
    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    Why? Because anything in this world, good or bad, can become between you and God, and that is an idol. What comes between you and God; distracts you from your worship; from the time that you ought to be spending with God? That is an idol.

    Thou shalt not bear false witness...
    Bob, that is simply "telling a lie." Have you ever told a lie?
    According to James 2:10 if you have you are on the same level as a murderer. You have broken all the commandments. Every man is a liar. You cannot escape this one.
    I have ducked nothing. I fail to see any point you have made, but only see the avoidance of the questions asked of you.
    The method of sola scriptura, as practiced in Acts 17:11 is that they took the Scripture preached by Paul, studied it to make sure that it was true, and then made a personal application. That is the reason many of them got saved. They made a personal application, something that you fail to do.
     
    #99 DHK, Dec 3, 2013
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I posted these texts -

    The saints do not claim God's Law is "burdensome" but they SHOW by their obedience to God's Commandments that they do in fact LOVE God AND Love the people of God. 1John 5:1-4.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.     1 John 5:1-3

    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


    As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

    ============================

    you don't address the content of the texts - except to complain about what they say as if I authored the texts.

    Your argument is "with the text".

    The mere post of it - gives rise to your endless objections to it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #100 BobRyan, Dec 4, 2013
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