Testing the "Seven Times Purified Theory"

Reading multiple translations gives one a better overview of Scripture, as a great many Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek words/phrases have multiple meanings in English. God knows this, of course, so He has caused/allowed multiple English translations to be made. (True for many other languages as well.)

Hypocrisy? The KJVOs are the carriers of that. They invent umpteen false excuses to try to sustain their false doctrine. And the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" is a prime example. They forget (or deliberately ignore) that every other English Bible version has the same verses in them. And NOWHERE in the KJV text does it mention itself nor the KJVO myth. That fact alone makes it false.

 

"The Sound Of Silence"(Simon & Garfunkel)

 

You suggested that I was a person who was in favor of translating the scriptures into other languages from the KJV after I had already posted strong"s numbering for the word "arise," thus demonstrating the consistency of the KJV from the Hebrew in the context of a theme in the scriptures.

Here is the deal. I am not upset with you about your belief about the KJV. Why would I care? I have offered much more explanation of Psalm 12 and why I believe it supports my position that the truths of God are preserved by his own choice of words. He actually says as much. I will look back over this thread to see if you have offered anything regarding what you believe the passage teaches.

"I do apologize for suggesting you thought that foreign Bibles should be translated from the KJV. You have not said that."

I forgive you, but I would be interested to know what any of you believe that psalm 12 teaches. If you decide not to interact it will not ruin my career, I think, but it will make me sad.

 

I have not seen this quote in the KJV. Did it come from one of your better translations?

I have made the suggestion that I believe the whole of psalm 12 is in the context of a theme in the scriptures, and particularly in the psalms, that is dealing with the LORD arising from the Father's thone where he is now seated to deliver the very small remnant of believing Israelites, thus answering their prayer, just before the attack that will eliminate them. The word arise in this series of psalms is the key to teach us when this prophecy will occur.This is a second coming context. The LORD speaks only once and it is to assure them that he will arise and answer their prayer. This is in Psalm 12:5.Israel has been tried and purged.

Isa 57:8 O bless our God, ye people, and make the voice of his praise to be heard:
9 Which holdeth our soul in life, and suffereth not our feet to be moved.
10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.
11 Thou broughtest us into the net; thou laidst affliction upon our loins.
12 Thou hast caused men to ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy [place].

Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

What do you think? Take a look at the following psalms.

Ps 3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies [upon] the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
Ps 7:6 Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me [to] the judgment [that] thou hast commanded.
Ps 9:19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
Ps 10:12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
Ps 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set [him] in safety [from him that] puffeth at him.
Ps 17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
Ps 44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
Ps 44:26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies’ sake.
Ps 68:1 « To the chief Musician, A Psalm [or] Song of David. » Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
Ps 74:22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.
Ps 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Ps 102:13 Thou shalt arise, and] have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
Ps 132:8 Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.

The context is Israel, the people of God. They are the ones who are brought through the fire and are refined. So, do you agree or disagree?

 

1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve *them from this generation for ever.

8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Verse 7 note: *them from: Heb. him,
that is, every one of them

 

A quote similar to that could be found in the 1611's preface "The Translators to the Readers."

In the 1611 preface, the KJV translators favorably quoted Augustine as they wrote:

"Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that variety of translations is profitable for finding out the sense of the Scriptures: so diversity of signification and sense in the margin, where the text is not so clear, must needs be good, yet, is necessary, as we are persuaded."

In their preface, the KJV translators also noted: “No cause therefore why the word translated should be denied to be the word, or forbidden to be current, notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting forth of it. For whatever was perfect under the sun, where apostles or apostolike men, that is, men indured with an extraordinary measure of God’s Spirit, and privileged with the privilege of infallibility, had not their hand? The Romanists therefore in refusing to hear, and daring to burn the word translated, did no less then despite the Spirit of grace, from whom originally it proceeded, and whose sense and meaning, as well as man’s weakness would enable, it did express.”

 

What do you expect? Many of the KJV translators were Anglicans I am told. You are not supposing that I think the preface of the KJV is inspired , are you? Some of them might have baptized babies and called it salvation. They are gifted translators. That does not make them Christians and the truth is that they probably did not know the truth about Psa 12:6-7 and might even agree with you on it, if we could ever know what you think it means.

 

All of the KJV translators were members of the Church of England [Anglicans]. All but possibly one held official positions or offices of some kind in the Church of England. Since the Church of England was a state church, several of them also held positions or offices in the government. They all accepted the Church of England's doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Their acceptance of Church of England doctrinal views affected some of their translation decisions. They changed some renderings in the pre-1611 English Bibles to renderings more favorable to Church of England church government views (episcopal church government). Since their understandings and interpretations of the Scriptures were imperfect according to the incorrect, unscriptural Church of England doctrinal views that they believed and accepted, it does not suggest that they would be perfect and infallible in their textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions.

 

Please see post #85 for what the 1611 translators thought .

 

This note is found in the 1611 AV.

 

I disagree because I believe Dave wrote some Psalms while he was being pursued by Saul, & he didn't know what God had planned for him. Those Psalms were a prayer for deliverance from Saul & co. who sought to kill Dave & his friends.

 

Are you suggesting the translators wrote a commentary instead of producing a translation?

 

They translated imperfectly according to their own understanding or misunderstanding of original-language words of Scripture. Instead of always giving a literal, word-for-word translation, sometimes they gave a paraphrase or dynamic equivalent rendering.

Baptist pastor Glenn Conjurske, who was a defender of the KJV and a critic of modern English versions and who admits his own bias for the KJV, acknowledged: “I grant that there is too much paraphrasing in the King James Version, more especially in the Old Testament. But even this may be excused, at least in part” (Olde Paths, October, 1997, p. 236; Bible Version, p. 230). Perhaps because of his love and bias for the KJV, Glenn Conjurske maintained that “it was proper—or at any rate excusable—to retain a certain amount of paraphrase from the older versions” (Ibid.). Glenn Conjurske claimed: “Much of the paraphrasing in the King James Version is retained from Tyndale and Coverdale” (Ibid.). Even though he is critical of the NKJV, Glenn Conjurske admitted: “The New King James Version has doubtless removed some paraphrasing which was in the old version” (Ibid.; Bible Version, p. 231).

Would an admission of some paraphrasing [or dynamic equivalents] in the pre-1611 English Bibles and in the KJV be a serious problem for inconsistent KJV-only opinions?

Concerning 1 Samuel 14:14, Dave Brunn maintained that “the KJV translators added an expanded, interpretive clause to their translation” and that “they translated the Hebrew word for ‘yoke’ as ‘acre …which a yoke of oxen might plow” (One Bible, p. 57).
E. W. Bullinger claimed that the KJV’s rendering of 1 Kings 20:33 “is a loose paraphrase” (Figures of Speech, p. 116).

Concerning Psalm 69:22, William Barrick wrote: “In this brief text consisting of six Hebrew words, the [KJV] translators expanded them into a very different form utilizing twenty-two words (nine of which are additions not found in the Hebrew forms either lexically or grammatically). This particular example of expansion is paraphrastic” (Understanding Bible Translation, pp. 61-62).

 

I think we have hit on a problem you have, rc3. You have not learned the ways of God. These prophesies in the Psalms are not dealing with Saul, and if they were and had already been fulfilled, as you are suggesting, then you would be tasked to show when they were fulfilled in a manner that would leave no doubt. The test of a true prophet is whether his prophesies come to pass, every jot and tittle, so to speak. Failure for them to come to pass is the proof that a false prophet has uttered them. This is the reason we have qualifiers in these psalms with words like generations and preservation, and things that will project us far into the future from when these prophesies were first given.

What will be the evidence that David is a true prophet and is really speaking the true word of God? Well, the remnant will be oppressed and they will be poor and they will be puffed at and ready to perish at the hand of their enemy. Then the LORD will arise and deliver them. It will be the LORD himself who will deliver them.These are not just words to fill up a page but prophesies that came down from heaven.

These problems David had with Saul and others are similitude and are fraught with metaphors, and are typical, but there are notable differences that will require the final and actual word for word fulfillment to complete.

Following is a similitude of the events that are prophesied in Psalm 12 and the one man deliverance from him that is puffing at them. See if you can perceive them. These are like "as & so" prophesies. It is the way of God to give physical illustrations in types, figures and similitudes and with metaphors for all his great truths. It is obvious that most of you men and those you quote do not know this.

2 Chro 36:1 Now it came to pass in the fourteenth year of king Hezekiah, [that] Sennacherib king of Assyria came up against all the defenced cities of Judah, and took them.
2 And the king of Assyria sent Rabshakeh from Lachish to Jerusalem unto king Hezekiah with a great army. And he stood by the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller’s field.
3 Then came forth unto him Eliakim, Hilkiah’s son, which was over the house, and Shebna the scribe, and Joah, Asaph’s son, the recorder.
4 And Rabshakeh said unto them, Say ye now to Hezekiah, Thus saith the great king, the king of Assyria, What confidence [is] this wherein thou trustest?
5 I say, [sayest thou], (but [they are but] vain words) [I have] counsel and strength for war: now on whom dost thou trust, that thou rebellest against me?
6 Lo, thou trustest in the staff of this broken reed, on Egypt; whereon if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so [is] Pharaoh king of Egypt to all that trust in him.
7 But if thou say to me, We trust in the LORD our God: [is it] not he, whose high places and whose altars Hezekiah hath taken away, and said to Judah and to Jerusalem, Ye shall worship before this altar?
8 Now therefore give pledges, I pray thee, to my master the king of Assyria, and I will give thee two thousand horses, if thou be able on thy part to set riders upon them.
9 How then wilt thou turn away the face of one captain of the least of my master’s servants, and put thy trust on Egypt for chariots and for horsemen?
10 And am I now come up without the LORD against this land to destroy it? the LORD said unto me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.
11 Then said Eliakim and Shebna and Joah unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, unto thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand [it]: and speak not to us in the Jews’ language, in the ears of the people that [are] on the wall.
12 But Rabshakeh said, Hath my master sent me to thy master and to thee to speak these words? [hath he] not [sent me] to the men that sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
13 Then Rabshakeh stood, and cried with a loud voice in the Jews’ language, and said, Hear ye the words of the great king, the king of Assyria.
14 Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you.
15 Neither let Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD, saying, The LORD will surely deliver us: this city shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.
16 Hearken not to Hezekiah: for thus saith the king of Assyria, Make [an agreement] with me [by] a present, and come out to me: and eat ye every one of his vine, and every one of his fig tree, and drink ye every one the waters of his own cistern;
17 Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards.
18 [Beware] lest Hezekiah persuade you, saying, The LORD will deliver us. Hath any of the gods of the nations delivered his land out of the hand of the king of Assyria?
19 Where [are] the gods of Hamath and Arphad? where [are] the gods of Sepharvaim? and have they delivered Samaria out of my hand?
20 Who [are they] among all the gods of these lands, that have delivered their land out of my hand, that the LORD should deliver Jerusalem out of my hand?
21 But they held their peace, and answered him not a word: for the king’s commandment was, saying, Answer him not.
22 Then came Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah, that [was] over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and Joah, the son of Asaph, the recorder, to Hezekiah with [their] clothes rent, and told him the words of Rabshakeh.

Continued in next post.

 

Continued;

1 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard [it], that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the LORD.
2 And he sent Eliakim, who [was] over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered with sackcloth, unto Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.
3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day [is] a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and [there is] not strength to bring forth.
4 It may be the LORD thy God will hear the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God, and will reprove the words which the LORD thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up [thy] prayer for the remnant that is left.
5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to Isaiah.
6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say unto your master, Thus saith the LORD, Be not afraid of the words that thou hast heard, wherewith the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me.
7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.
8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed from Lachish.
9 And he heard say concerning Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, He is come forth to make war with thee. And when he heard [it], he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying,
10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of Judah, saying, Let not thy God, in whom thou trustest, deceive thee, saying, Jerusalem shall not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.
11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands by destroying them utterly; and shalt thou be delivered?
12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed, [as] Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which [were] in Telassar?
13 Where [is] the king of Hamath, and the king of Arphad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivah?
14 And Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up unto the house of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD.
15 And Hezekiah prayed unto the LORD, saying,
16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou [art] the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
17 Incline thine ear, O LORD, and hear; open thine eyes, O LORD, and see: and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent to reproach the living God.
18 Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries,
19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they [were] no gods, but the work of men’s hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.
20 Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou [art] the LORD, [even] thou only.
21 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent unto Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Whereas thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria:
22 This [is] the word which the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, [and] laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.
23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted [thy] voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? [even] against the Holy One of Israel.
24 By thy servants hast thou reproached the Lord, and hast said, By the multitude of my chariots am I come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon; and I will cut down the tall cedars thereof, [and] the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the height of his border, [and] the forest of his Carmel.
25 I have digged, and drunk water; and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged places.
26 Hast thou not heard long ago, [how] I have done it; [and] of ancient times, that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste defenced cities [into] ruinous heaps.
27 Therefore their inhabitants [were] of small power, they were dismayed and confounded: they were [as] the grass of the field, and [as] the green herb, [as] the grass on the housetops, and [as corn] blasted before it be grown up.
28 But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.
29 Because thy rage against me, and thy tumult, is come up into mine ears, therefore will I put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.
30 And this [shall be] a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat [this] year such as groweth of itself; and the second year that which springeth of the same: and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruit thereof.
31 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:
32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this.
33 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shields, nor cast a bank against it.
34 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the LORD.
35 For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David’s sake.

36 Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they [were] all dead corpses.

 

You accused others of supposedly have a condescending attitude, but you do not seem to look at your own posts.
You come across as assuming your opinions and private interpretations to be superior and above being questioned.
Your comments are the ones that seem condescending.

 

Who is this Baptist Conjurski? I have never heard of him. But I have heard that some KJV translators, mostly Angicans I suppose, produced a bible that has endured for centuries. If this Baptist fellow is so sharp why don't he create a translation and correct what he thinks is an error and we will see how long his work endures. No translation that has been accepted by the church has endured for long without an update. This is an admission that it was worthless in the first place.

I am a Baptist but after being on this Baptist forum for a while I realize that the designation of Baptist is so broad now that it means little to nothing.

Who are these people? You write like we should know. They are opposed to a perfect English bible. What you do is gather all the nay sayers together to quote so as to push your doctrine. That would be like asking Pelosi and Clinton to write a campaign ad for Donald Trump.

I say a sinner can expect a pure word of God, both individually and collectively because his word is eternal.

But you still have said nothing about Psa 12 and the subject of this thread.

 

Well, I am making an effort to prove them from the scriptures. It is more than you are doing.

 

The 1611 KJV has not endured without an update or without any revisions. There have been several revisions of the KJV since 1611. There are over 2,000 differences between the 1611 edition and a post-1900 KJV edition. There are over 400 differences between the 1769 Oxford edition and a typical post-1900 KJV edition. There are some differences that can be found in thirty or more varying editions of the KJV in print today.

Baptists and other Bible-believers made a revision of the KJV in 1842. I have a copy of it.

 

That may be your condescending opinion, but that does not make it true.