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Featured Textual Criticism.

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 37818, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    In a closed thread @davidtaylorjr wrote, "This shows a lack of knowledge with regard to textual criticism. It also tries to act as though these verses are not included in the new translations, they are. I am looking at the long ending of Mark in my ESV right as I type this. This is a red herring argument."
    I never said that the ESV did not cite it. I gave it as an examle, yes. ESV omits from Luke 4:4, "every word of God." 90.7% of the evidence has the reading, only 0.4% omit it. There are other variants. Now the ESV reads in John 13:2, "During" which is only supported by 0.3% of the evidence, where as 99.5% have "ended." That is just the tip of the "iceburg," so to speak. Not to mention translation issues too.
     
  2. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    So is your argument that the longer ending or Mark is apostolic or not? Not sure which thread you discussed this on.

    As far as Luke 4:4. Plently of early witnesses, even outside of Greek contain the shorter reading. א‎ B L W 1241 SYs SA BOpt

    As far as John 13:2, this is tense change of the same verb γίνομαι. The pre 8th century evidence favors the present tense. The other reading is aorist. Which doesn't even mean supper has to be finished. Just means it has to be served. To say 99.5% has "ended", is not accurate.
    The verb in the aorist often means "it happened" or "it became" . This could easily mean after the supper started.

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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am persuaded the long ending of Mark is Apostolic.
    Manuscript evidence is the information as I checked it before I posted it. You provided nothing against it.
     
  4. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Well, I didn't say anything for or against the longer ending. I spoke of the other passges....so of course I didnt prove anything against it.

    However if you speak of passages like John 13.
    Lets say that γενομένου (TR) is correct and the NA28 is wrong with γινομένου. Why in Matthew 26:6 does the KJV say Jesus "being" in Bethany instead of Jesus "ended" in Bethany? The same exact form of the Greek word in the TR is used in Matt 26:6 and John 13:2. If that word means "ended" like you say, which one did the KJV get wrong?

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  5. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    As to the authenticity of the last verses of Mark, I recommend John Burgeon's book
    The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark available in multiple editions on Amazon.
     
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  6. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    To me, NA28 has been wrong 27 times.
    That's why they keep revising it.

    As I see it, UBS 5 has been wrong 4 times.
    That's why they keep revising it.

    It doesn't.
    In the English, it says, " Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper," ( Matthew 26:6 )

    In the Greek, it states ( carried over into English ), " Of-the yet Jesus becoming in Bethany in home of Simon".
    I agree, the word "was" isn't as close to the Greek ( even in the TR ) as "ended" seems to be, but to me, the translators looked at context to determine the correct rendering of the word.

    " Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,
    7 there came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat [at meat]."
    ( Matthew 26:6-7 ).

    Neither, in my opinion.
    They used context in both cases to determine how the Greek should be rendered.
     
  7. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    A joke?
    The TR has had many more editions and revisions over its history.

    Rob
     
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  8. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    No joke.
    To my knowledge, the TR hasn't had nearly as many.
     
  9. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Correct it does say "was"....not sure why I did that. Thanks for point it out. But like you acknowledged. It is still different in both spots

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  10. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and I admit that.
    I gave you the reason I see it the way I do, good sir.
     
  11. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26134/26134-pdf.pdf
     
  12. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    It seems that much of the evidence comes down to Ancient versus Plentiful. I can't fault a brother for leaning one way or the other.

    But I really scratch my head when arguments are made for the inclusion of the Johannine Comma. I just can't see a good argument for it.
     
  13. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    ...yeah....and you skipped ahead in the argument. Hahaha. It is more a translational argument and not a text issue. Even is the TR is correct as some on NA committee believed, they felt unanimously that is should be "interpreted it as an ingressive aorist, “supper having been served.”" I also have no commentary that argues any other way. I am sure one exists, I just dont know which one that would be.

    The point being made, was 99.5% ...over what ever listed day "ended". I know of none that actually says "ended" (τελως) or some other definitive way of saying "ended".

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  14. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Erasmus felt the same way.

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  15. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    There is said to be around thirty varying editions of the Textus Receptus.
     
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Each variant needs to be cosidered on a case by case basis. A common text exists between all the variants. The more common reading among any variant has more in common with the common text between the variants. Think about this truth.
     
  17. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    I'm not quite following you.

    When you say a "common text exists between all variants"....what do you mean by that? An original ancestor? That they all originated from the same "common" textual reading?

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  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    (
    Does the NA28 show that the Sinaiticus actualy reads γεινομένου? And the (2?) corrector had marked over the iota?
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious? The whole idea of textual criticism is the claim to discover the original reading of the original text. Merely many copies of a variant versus merely an oldest existant variant. The oldest existant variant of John 13:2 has γεναμένου, P66. For γενομένου.
     
  20. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    My NA28 shows the original hand has "γινομένου". And the 2nd corrector has "γενομενου". I would have to look at other works to see if there is a spelling variant. The NA tends to standardize spelling. My Tyndale house Greek, which does show spelling "errors" at times, does not show anything here either.

    So no, the NA28 does not show that. My Comfort Textual Commentary is at the office....dont have that handy.

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