1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Textual Criticism?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 37818, May 12, 2023.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    534
    Faith:
    Baptist
    37818 I am not questioning that Pickering thinks he has restored the original autographs. I am saying that he has not way of knowing if his theory is true.
    Thank you for keeping me in your prayers. But I am curious as to what your pray is for.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I love you brother. And it is ok should we disagree.

    We do not have the mss access that the scholars who study them them have. We only have the information the scholars have made available to us. We either believe it or we do not.
     
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    534
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is just an in family disagreement my brother. I actually bookmarked all 16 videos and will take a look at them. To be honest I do not think he will change my mind, but you never know.

    He may have done excellent work in bring the F35 text together but when he says these are the "the precise original wording" that for me is a step to far.
     
  9. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,997
    Likes Received:
    325
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It had nothing to do with F35, because it wasn't named back then.

    Why would I even consider it. I was trying to have a joint conversation about Family 35 for learning. I wanted to know why you didn't like it. Of course I wonder if you really know how he came to his conclusions. It has never been my job to convince you of F35 but that you know his real views.
    There you go telling untruths again. When did I ever imply to you I thought "all others are to be judged"? And why do you think F35 manuscripts are good?
    No there not. Most discard them. Fee wouldn't even consult or consider them. If any Textual critics consult them now its only because of Pickerings work!
    Good. Read or listen to Pickering himself. That way if you disagree with him or are persuaded you will learn for yourself.
    And
    I have no interest in finding scholars that support him to share with you. I wanted to interact here to learn about Family 35 for myself. Not some critical text scholar from 50 years ago that has no appreciation for the Original Text.
     
    #189 Conan, May 20, 2023
    Last edited: May 20, 2023
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    534
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you just disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Funny that you want me to learn about F35 & Pickering and yet you do not feel it necessary to look at anything or support your view.

    By your logic I guess we should not look at any scholar that wrote more than, what, 10, 15 years ago or perhaps we should shorten that to the last 5 years. Truth does not change with time as you seem to think.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Silverhair,
    Those 17 videos I had posted by Dr. Pickering, he explains his defense of his findings for family 35. They are from his website. #00 - #16.

    This thread will probably be closed soon. This post #191
     
  12. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,997
    Likes Received:
    325
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A misunderstanding. Perhaps my fault.
     
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    534
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is the claim correct that many early translations and writings of the church fathers show they are in support of the Byzantine text?



    Many Byzantine priority/majority text/textus receptus advocates rely on Dean John W. Burgon’s massive collation of patristic evidence a century ago. Dean Burgon found over 85,000 quotations in the early fathers that he said used the Byzantine text. But Burgon used uncritical and late texts (copied in the middle ages) and made a number of assumptions about the fathers when they quoted the NT (for example, Ignatius and Irenaeus often wrote, ‘As the Lord said,’ without giving the book name. Burgon found the wording in Mark that was Byzantine—though the wording in Matthew was Alexandrian—and he then assumed that the patristic writer was quoting from Mark). This issue has been raised by numerous scholars over the years. Gordon D. Fee, who is probably the best patristic text-critical scholar alive today, has said that there are NO ante-Nicene fathers who quoted the Byzantine text. As well, there is a recent article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society that deals just with Burgon’s approach. The author found that it was terribly faulty.

    As for versional evidence, there used to be, about 70 years ago, the dispute as to whether the Syriac Peshitta was Byzantine or not. This was coupled with issues related to its date. Burgon’s followers dated the Peshitta in the second century and defended the view that it was Byzantine. Others argued that it was fifth century and was non-Byzantine. After all these years, we now can come to a better perception than either side had: the Syriac Peshitta is indeed fairly early, sometime before the year AD 451. It may even be as early as the third century. But its textual character is not Byzantine. The earliest Syriac translation that is Byzantine is the Harclean version of the sixth century.

    Others claimed that the Gothic version of the late fourth century was the earliest Byzantine text. But recent work in the Gothic version suggests that it is not Byzantine. I don’t think the work done is yet adequate to make such a claim, so I am not willing to entirely abandon the view that the Gothic may be the earliest Byzantine version. Nevertheless, it is significant that the more research that is done on the versions and fathers the less they look Byzantine.

    The evidence is rather overwhelming. There are a few folks who would claim that the Byzantine text existed early in the versions and fathers, but their methods are flawed and they represent no more than about 1-2% of all textual scholars. But even if they could prove that the Byzantine text was early, this would not be enough: they would also have to demonstrate that it was the predominant text-form in the early centuries. On the other side, there are the vast hordes of textual scholars of all theological stripes who see no real evidence that the Byzantine text was early. Usually the argument against these scholars in fact turns on their convictions. You will notice that Byzantine/KJV folks argue along two lines almost all the time: God has preserved his text and since the Byzantine is the most amply preserved, it must go back to the original; and the scholars who are behind modern translations are either deceived or are themselves heretical. Thus, their arguments are anything but rational; they are usually emotional and ad hominem. Frequently, Westcott and Hort are maligned as liberal and heretical, even as occult leaders (a charge that is blatantly false). Two things are conveniently overlooked when such ad hominem charges are made: first, the textus receptus (which was the Greek text used by the KJV translators) was produced by a Roman Catholic humanist who, by the standards of the KJV advocates, should be labeled as far more heretical than either Westcott or Hort; and second, the character of men like Hort or Westcott really has nothing to do with our evaluation of the ancient evidence, nor does Erasmus’ character. No textual scholar today completely follows Hort’s approach; at the same time, the great mass of evidence found in the last century largely confirms his general direction and has certainly done nothing to give comfort to KJV advocates.

    Is the claim correct that many early translations and writings of the church fathers show they are in support of the Byzantine text? | Bible.org
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Conan,
    Thank you for talking serious interesting and defense of this topic. I find Dr. Pickering's find in what he has named Family 35 a truly remarkable find.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    534
    Faith:
    Baptist
    At times we all may be speaking past each other. The F35 family has merit but no matter what text line one follows we can not get back to the autographs. Which in my mind is a good thing as if we did recover the original text I am sure that we would have some worship it as they did the bronze snake and the golden calf.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, assuming Pickering is mistaken about f35. Greek New Testament text. That a reading identical in the TR, W-H, NU, MT and F35 Greek New Testament would be such a text.

    Without agreeing with Pickering's view, can you state how and why he came to his view? What do you understand his evidence to be? Again, without agreeing with his conclusion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,997
    Likes Received:
    325
    Faith:
    Baptist
    KJV advocates? This is not Textual Criticism, but written against KJVOnlyism. It is full of errors as well. Both the Syriac Peshitta and the Gothic are Byzantine Text in the Gospels. At least 8 of 10 readings will agree against the Alexandrian Text.

    Also there are thousands of quotations by Burgon. This is reviewed by Alexandrian Text people. For them to just dismiss years of work without giving any real figures or real examples seems unscholarly. I call bullhockey. They are heavily biased. Just like their critical text decisions are unsupported by the actual evidence and their decisions short and shallow, so could this be. Considering the whole academia hasn't been able to take on Burgon's work, this is just a cheap shot wishing they could. Thousands of quotations. Anyone who has actually read Burgon, who defeated Westcott and Horts theory's easily, want proof.
     
  18. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,997
    Likes Received:
    325
    Faith:
    Baptist
    True indeed! Such carefully copied manuscripts is just what we would expect from Born Again Believer's. Contrast that with some other early manuscripts that were not carefully copied at all.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,990
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Faith:
    Baptist
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...