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The Absolute Equality of Jesus and The Father

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Nov 18, 2020.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    “και παν κτισμα ο εστιν εν τω ουρανω και εν τη γη και υποκατω της γης και επι της θαλασσης α εστιν και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων” (Revelation 5:13-14)

    "And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)

    Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality. Thus, we read in chapter 22, verse 1: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. The Greek here is very important, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, where “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. God and the Lamb, as “distinct” Persons, are united in Their Rule. This absolute unity, can also be seen in chapter 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer to “His Christ”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ”, the latter no doubt being the correct meaning, as seen from the main passage from chapter 5, and 22. Let no one suppose that there is some “subordination” with Jesus Christ to the Father, post-Incarnation, as this is proven as completely wrong from these passages in Revelation.

    These passages are some of the strongest and clearest in the Holy Bible, that speak of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two separate Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).

    Verse 13 speaks of "every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them", which is nothing less than the entirety of the human race, "every created thing", with no exceptions. Here the entire universe ascribes "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE Might", where in the Greek text, the "article [the]" is repeated with each word, signifying, "whatever blessing, and honour, and glory, and might", there is in the entire universe, as in ALL blessings, honour, glory, might, is here said to belong "to Him that sits on the throne", which is God the Father in this case. So, let us be clear here what is being taught; that, ALL, "THE blessing, and ALL THE honour, and ALL THE glory, and ALL THE might", are said EQUALLY to belong to God the Father, and God the Son. In the Book of Isaiah we read these words: "to whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (46:5), and in 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images". It is very clear from these passages, that Almighty God would never "share" His glory, praise with another, nor can He ever be compared with, or made equal with anyone. And yet, in the passage in Revelation, this is exactly what the Apostle John, writing under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, has done! It would be nothing short of blasphemy, for the Apostle John, to have written as he did in Revelation 5:13-14, IF, Jesus Christ was a created being, as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach. How can the Almighty Creator God, be EVER "share" the " blessings, and honour, and glory, and might", with a someone Whom He created? Can the Creator be said to be EQUAL with His creation, IF as some blaspheme, that Jesus is a created being? Jesus Himself says in the Gospel of John, "My Father works until now, and I work" (5:17), which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus "making Himself equal (Gk, isos, "the same in quality". J H Thayer, Greek-English lexicon; "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God, Jn. v.18", p.307. Thayer was a Unitarian, who, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ) to God (toi theoi)", because He had called God, "His OWN Father" (verse 18). Thus is their relationship. And in verse 23, Jesus says something that ONLY someone who was coequal to the Father could ever have said. We read: "That everyone (all humans) should honour (Gk, time, "worship, esteem, honour") the Son, even as (Gk, kathos, "just as, even as", indicating comparision) they honour the Father. He that does not honour the Son, does not honour the Father Who sent Him". Can a created being demand that SAME honour that God the Father is given? Regardless of highly exalted Jesus Christ might have been, if He were a created being, there is NO way that He could ever have used language as He does here, without blaspheming. Even as the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ demanded EQUAL “HONOUR” with the Father, though He says that “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). Here is indeed a Great Mystery!

    John then goes on to say in verse 14, “And the elders fell down and worshipped”. This “worship” is here directed to BOTH , “to Him Who sits on the throne, AND unto the Lamb”, which further shows that Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, is 100% COEQUAL, with God the Father, and in the Godhead, His Deity is no “less”, in any way, than the Father. The fact that BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER, can only be understood to Their being also COESSENTIAL

    Also, in Revelation 1:17, and 2:8, we read of Jesus Christ say of Himself, that He is, "the first and the last". Thayer says of the words, "ho protos kai ho eschatos, i.e. the eternal One" (page, 554). Which can ONLY mean that Jesus Christ is UNCREATED, and ETERNAL. Add to this the words of Jesus Christ in chapter 22, “I am THE Alpha and THE Omega, THE First and THE Last, THE Beginning and THE End”. In Isaiah 44:6, we read, “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am THE First and I am THE Last; besides me there is no god”. It is not only impossible for Jesus to have said these words about Himself, IF, as some teach, that He is no more than a mere “created” being, but, it would also be the highest form of blasphemy. However, we are confident from what we read in the Infallible Word of God, that there can be no doubt, that Jesus Christ, IS indeed ALMIGHTY GOD, without beginning or end, as are God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Please explain how you are not conflating His incarnate humanity with His deity in your argument?
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    explain what you mean, with example?
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    John 20:17, ". . . I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. "

    1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . ."

    John 5:18, ". . . equal with God."

    John 14:9, ". . . he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; . . ."

    John 14:6, ". . . no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

    Our Lord Jesus Christ is both the Man and God but not mixed. A distinct Person from God and also the same God.

    John 1:1, "with God" and "was God."
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    and what? what are you trying to show? you don't understand what I am saying! :rolleyes:
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is why I responed as I did. You made the comment about the man Jesus Christ:
    You do understand that in Him becoming the man Jesus He became part of His own creation as a creature too?
     
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    The person of Jesus Christ is eternal with no beginning and no end. Christianity 101....
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Both as "was God" and being another person eternally uncreated "with the God." John 1:1-2. 2 John 1:9.
     
    #8 37818, Nov 19, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    WRONG! Jesus is the Name that was given to the eternal Second Person of the Holy Trinity, when He was Incarnate, and not before.

    "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ...And she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call (καλεσεις, future, active) His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins...And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called His name JESUS" Matthew 1:16, 21, 25)

    "And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a Son, and shalt call (καλέσεις) His name JESUS" (Luke 1:31)

    Prior to His Incarnation, The Second Person was never known as "Jesus", as He did not have a human nature before this time.
     
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Please explain this verse if in fact God and Jesus are equal.
    Joh_14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
    MB
     
  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    So a name was added to Him. Not a new person. My statement stands. Jesus Christ is eternal, not created.
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    ONLY the human nature of Jesus Christ was "created" by God the Holy Spirit. As He IS sinless in this nature, Jesus is not part of the "same" human nature of humans. That is what Paul uses very explicit language, "being born in the likeness (ὁμοίωμα, not "sameness") of men" (Philippians 2:7). And, Romans 8:3, "God sending his own Son in the likeness (ὁμοίωμα, not "sameness") of sinful flesh"
     
  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And actually, this does not prove that His name was not Jesus prior to His physical birth.
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you "theology 101" is flawed! Jesus Christ, is ONLY given to the POST Incarnate Person, Who AT this time, became the God-Man, as in "the Word was God...the Word became flesh" (John 1:1, 14). In the Greek, "ην...εγενετο", is very important. The Word ETERNALLY IS God, but BECAME flesh in time!
     
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  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    do you just like to argue for the sake of it. Show ONE Scripture text that says that the Name Jesus is ever used BEFORE the Incarnation! As I said, your theology is warped!
     
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I said it doesn't prove that it wasn't. You are reading something into Scripture that is not there. We do not know if it was used before.
     
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    What you are arguing is that Jesus Christ is somehow fundamentally different than the Word.
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Sure, from John 5:23, "να παντες τιμωσιν τον υιον καθως τιμωσιν τον πατερα ο μη τιμων τον υιον ου τιμα τον πατερα τον πεμψαντα αυτον", where my literal translation is, "that everyone may Honour the Son, JUST AS (καθως) they Honour the Father. He that does not Honour the Son, does not Honour the Father, that sent Him". Also, when Jesus healed the man earlier in this chapter in John, He said that He was working with His own Father in doing so. To which the Jews were enraged, not only because Jesus had in their eyes had broken the Sabbath Day, but, by saying that His OWN Father was also working with Him, He had made, "Himself equal with God" (verses 17-18). The use of this adjective, ἴσος (equal), is used by the Greek Homer, "such as to afford favour to neither side". Again, in John 10:30, Jesus says, "εγω και ο πατηρ εν εσμεν", that is, "I and the Father, one we are", where the "unity" is that of "Power, Authority and Protection", which is clear from verses 28-29, "And not anyone shall snatch them out of My hand...no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand".
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    so you like conjecture in your theology? I only deal with Scripture facts!
     
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    YES, because as THE WORD, He did NOT have a "human nature". Is this really so difficulty to grasp?
     
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