The Anti Christ?

Eschatologist: "I feel very sure that the modern day
veiw of 'antichrist' by the masses today is not what
John was purporting to his first century audience. "

I'm sure also.
What do you think John's message would be for us in
the 21st Century?

I see a message of hope, for i
see other places that we who belong to
Jesus will get out of this mess before
the Antichrist makes it so bad that
we and our families couldn't possibly
continue to live.


Faith for today,
Bright hope for Tomorrow,
God's recreation of the new Day.

 

"Preach it Brother Ed"
He never even addressed the fundamental issues presented by the passages I supplied! The bible in itself is A MESSAGE OF HOPE. That is why we are here speaking about it on this site. My statement presented above was about the mis-usages of the 'antichrist' passages and its timing and relative use today. Today's message of 'antichrist' is a message of FEAR. My hope is that the church overcame this fearfull situation in the first century, so there would be a church today to even discuss our differences. And that Christ was victorious yesterday as He is victorious today, and that we have a faith that was once for all delivered to the saints(Jude 3).

 

So the anti-christ is the "son of perdition" and also the "beast" yet no one can use scripture and prove a connetion.
The only thing we know is that "anti-christ" existed in the 1st century as eschatlogist showed. As far as the "beast" that seems to fit Nero.

 

Grasshopper, John said in 1 John that many antichrists were already in the world. The same is true for today.

However, John also said that the antichrist is coming.

So, he says there are many with THE antichrist coming. You tell all of us who he is.

 

Scripture please.

 

were all born with a cursed spirit. an unclean spirit. an antichrist spirit. in many situations we play high priest before a god, yet this "title" comes to the forefront when the plans of God calls these new believers to be a part of his family.

they soon are confronted by following Gods law and their reactions reveal their motivations. they do not give place to Jesus as their Christ before the Father.
thus they compete over against him. they play anti-christ. or compete for the office of or in methods of..

these go no further in their christian walk than to live under the law in a state of unending spiritual death.
and not understanding and acknowledging spiritual resurrection power.

when we are born with our cursed spirit. we are born in spiritual death. awaiting judgement. only when God calls us do we realize our true condition we were in all along. it is impossible under our own power to escape such a condition. we are destined to be ultimately seperated from the father unless we receive a completely new spirit.

the spirit of Jesus must become ours or we will perish in this condition called spiritual death.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

this parable referrs to a unclean spirit being "driven out". not destroyed. This is the antichrist spirit.

this is like the apostate christian. they first begin to allow the law to uncover sin, yet they do not rely on God by faith to take away the temptation from the believer. they try to stop sinning under their own carnal power.

thus creating works of their flesh and not allowing Jesus to become lord and christ in their life. they possess a confused knowledge of the nature and will of God.

they do not understand the method of God resurrecting our spirit from death nor accept it and making it a reality to themselves. they do not accept God being "inside them" or being sovereign over their will.

Jesus is up their..or out there. Not "in them"....

in John 1 we read that one is easily identified by not confessing that the resurrected spirit of Christ is WITHIN THEIR FLESH.

ergo..their still in spiritual death and either awaiting resurrection at some later date or not at all

they are like the jews who lived in the OT.

they are found living under the law.
thats the "man of sin".
he knows of sin.
he's found the loophole in the law.
(or use a current cope out. Jesus paid for all sins of all men.)
he can follow it under HIS OWN POWER!
thus he successfully follows is without sinning.
and not needing forgiveness or the use of another Christ.

he lives under their own law and not by faith in Jesus as their christ and lord.

there is not One antichrist. there are many.
and their tricky !!!

 

Matthew 24:21-22 (nKJV):

For then there will be great tribulation, such as
has not been since the beginning of the world until
this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh
would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Jesus Himself said these words.
Please do NOT trivialize or spiritualize
His clear words. Thank you.

When did this happen?
Be sure to show how it was worse than 15,000,000 Christians
killed in Red China 1948-50.
Be sure to show how it was worse than 25,000,000
Christians killed by the Black Plague during the early 1300s.
Be sure to show how it was worse than the
slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews by Nazi Germany in the 1940s.

 

A word about English.

Antichrist - the one individual, if any, who
acts as Christ but is evil

antichrist - any person who acts like Antichrist

Common spelled wrong terms: antiChrist, anti-christ, Anti Christ

they're - contraction of THEY ARE
there - over yonder
their - stuff that belongs to them

 

If we are to say that there is a spirit of Christ.

and we as human beings are physically born with a spirit. (for we need a spirit to exist)

then can we say that we receive at our physical birth, a cursed or imperfect spirit?

whats it called?..anti-christ. as all of our physical world is based on its nature....
which is cursed and imperfect.

we just dont call ourselves this "title" until we can prove to actually be apostate and competing or imitating over against the real deal. the one ane only true spirit of Christ.

faith is a hard thing to identify in human beings. until we teach ourselves that there are two different kinds of faith.
faith that is based on the true and full knowledge of Good and evil. faith that only comes with proof within the real christ spirit. when we confess to having the real spirit. we have the proof within us to express to others what the difference is between the real and the imitation.

the false spirit of christ doesnt have a revelation or understanding of receiving resurrection power.

they do not receive the luxury of eternal life.

their hope is based on their own works rather than resting upon the work of another that is within them..

 

Since when are you concerned with the clear words of Jesus reguarding Escatology? Do I need to provide you some examples?

 

"I tell you the TRUTH, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened"(Matt.24:34).

Jesus Himself SAID THESE WORDS TOO.
Please do NOT trivialize or spiritualize
these clear words as well, just because
you may not understand them. Thank you.

Matthew 24:21(NIV):

"For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-- and never to be equaled again."

Why do you worry about 15,000,000 christians killed in Red China in 1948-50 and 25,000,000 christians killed by the Black Plague in the 1300's when clearly Matthew 23 and 24 were written to the Jews of the first century? Do you not notice the pronouns in Matthew 24?

vs.1 'His disciples'
vs.2 'You'
vs.3 'The disciples'
vs.4 'You'
vs.6 'You'
vs.9 'You'
(and the list could go on and on!)

Then at the end He says, "This generation"(vs.34).

And you quoted: "Be sure to show how it was worse than the slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews by Nazi Germany in the 1940's."

Well here it is. First of all you are apparantly thinking in the fleshly(physical) and not from the covenantal(spiritual) standpoint. But since this might be the case I shall start there.

I believe Josephus recorded that around 1,000,000 to 3,000,000 Jews were slaughered by the Roman campaign against Judea and Jerusalem from 66-70 AD, not to mention the MANY who were taken into captivity and killed in the Roman arenas and many others sold as slaves. From a percentile amount comparative to the Jewish population in the first century verses the 1940's, a greater amount of the total population were killed in the earlier period. But still physical loss of life was not the real picture. Was it bad? Yes! But what you have missed is the true reality and suffering. You need to go back and read the book of Lamentations closely and see the horrible agony and distress that the Jews suffered in the loss of their Temple and Jerusalem when they were destroyed by the Babylonians. They dedicated an entire book to relate their sufferings! And this was not just about the loss of life. No, this was about the loss of their Temple and their great city!

In 70AD they also lost their city and their Temple. They lost their identity as a people, nation and religion. Furthur more they would never recover from this loss. Here is a list as to just how extensive their loss was:

1) The loss of their Temple
2) The loss of Jerusalem
3) They lost all documentation and records of their geneology. This was a very great loss as this was imparative to conduct their religious practices. This is why the Jews today have no identity as related to what tribe their are from. These records were burnt and destroyed by the Romans.
4) As I stated above, around 3,000,000 Jews were killed by the Romans, a very large percent of their first century population.

So then, I ask you this question. Was it a greater loss that around 6,000,000 Jews were killed in the 1940's or that in 70AD they lost 3,000,000 lives and their identity as a people, nation and religion was lost forever! If you are as intelligent as it appears I know you are I feel you would now choose the latter.

Would not the loss of just one of your family members be far more grievous than the loss of, let's say, India? It would to me. Your loss is FAR more personel than anything abroad. This is the kind of loss as experienced by the Jews.

So this event, especially covenantal, was a "great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Go with God and with peace!

 

Meant to say 1,000's in India, not the loss of the whole nation of India. Sorry!

 

Grasshopper: "Since when are you concerned with the clear
words of Jesus reguarding Escatology?"

I'm an elder. In deference to that status, that will be to you
"Since when are you, Sir, concerned with the clear
words of Jesus reguarding Escatology?"

My guess that Antichrist = Son of Perdition = Beast from the Sea,
has the same scriptural level as those who guess
that they are different. And it makes one eschatology much
simpler

Eschatologist: "My hope is that the church overcame this
fearfull situation in the first century ... "

So the book of Revelation is a history book about the
first century? The first century ran from 1AD to 100AD,
the book of Revelation was completed in 96AD.



[ December 10, 2003, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

I said: "Jesus Himself said these words.
Please do NOT trivialize or spiritualize
His clear words. Thank you."

Eschatologist, you did both.

BTW, the population of Judah in 70AD was about 3,000,000.
The armies of Titus killed maybe a 1,000,000
and another million were shipped off as slaves.
This is NOT the worse thing that ever happend in the
history of the world.
At one place in Revelation it talks of 1/3 of mankind being
destroyed -- that is over two billion now.
Get a grip on prospective - that is 2,000 times worse than
what happend in 70AD.
Even if you use scripture and count 1 Jew = 1,000 gentiles,
the Tribulation loss (if it occured now)
is greater than the 70AD loss
JUST AS JESUS SAID.

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

My guess that Antichrist = Son of Perdition = Beast from the Sea

Well at least you admit your form of interpretation comes from guessing.

BTW, the population of Judah in 70AD was about 3,000,000.The armies of Titus killed maybe a 1,000,000and another million were shipped off as slaves.This is NOT the worse thing that ever happend in the history of the world.

Do you not understand what eschatoligist was saying? Did you just ignore it because it doesn't jive with you sermon notes?

To the Jews of the 1st century it WAS the worst thing that had or will ever happen to them, their religion, and their world. Why are you caught up in numbers? Jesus said nothing about numbers.
Is it worse to lose to the worst team in the history of college football by 1 (17-16) or to lose to the best team in college history by 3 (17-14). According to you the last is the worse.

I'm an elder. In deference to that status

Hmm.. Do I need to bow?


Lets look at some of the "clear" words of Jesus in Matthew.

Chater 23 we have this: 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness

What will they do?

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city.

Now notice what Jesus told His disciples in Chapter 10:

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you , Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come

Are these "clear" words of Jesus? Who are the they? Who is the you? The "you" shall see the coming of the Son of Man.

Not to Chapter 16:
Matt. 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels ; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds. 28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

So the transfiguration you say? Did the angels appear with Him at the transfiguration? Did the judgement occur at that time as well? Or does verse 27 occur 2000 years in the future with 28 occurring 6 days later? What are the "clear" words of Jesus here? Did some of those Disciples see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom?

Matt. 26:

57 And they that had taken Jesus led him away to the house of Caiaphas the high priest , where the scribes and the elders were gathered together.

Notice the passage says Caiaphus not Ed Edwards.

64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Did Caiaphus see this or not? Remember who the Ye is.

 

Chaiaphas.. an Antichrist ?

Joh 11:49 And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Joh 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.


Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
Mat 26:66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Question is WHO was worse..Judas or Chaiaphas..seeing that Chaiaphas was in the position of being a (false) high priest…(or antichrist)..

God gives him the vision. He tells others and starts the process of hunting down Jesus looking for judgement. and Chaiaphas knowing all along that He must be SACRIFICED.

What a chad..He rent his clothes and said that Jesus blaphemed.

He looked good to the crowd all along knowing WHO he was putting to death..

Me2

 

Ed Edwards

Once again you have misunderstood my views on the book of Revelation. Let me first explain the meaning of the book of Hebrews. This book shows us the two covenants in contrast, one was fading away(the old), and another more perfect one(the new), which was paid for with the blood of Christ was replacing it. The book of Revelation shows what transpires as it happens. The old covenant, having run its course, was finished, and God's promised judgement on those unbelieving, Christ rejecting, apostate Jews were being punished. Not only did they reject Christ, but they were also held responsible for His death and the shedding of the blood of the prophets and saints(Matt.23:30-38;Rev.16:6;17:6;18:24). (sometimes I wonder if I am waisting my time giving scripture references, as it seems you care little about reading them).


The book of Revelation is not a compilation of first century history as you have said, but a picture of events that took place as God divorced and judged those unbelieving wicked Jews and their kingdom just as He had promised. Then the marriage of the Bride(the Church) took place with the Lamb. God accomplished His will by using the Roman armies to deliver this final blow upon the Harlot city Jerusalem and the unbelieving apostate Jews.

Next you made another BOLD ASSUMPTION as you said, "the book of Revelation was completed in 96AD." This is sort of like the other cows following the bell-cow! For you must be echoing what others have sounded off to you, without really doing some in depth work on this subject.

All, and I mean ALL reference to the 96AD theory can be traced back to one man's statement. That man was Irenaeus(130-202AD), and his statement is as follows:

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign."

The term "that was seen" is where the misunderstanding began. This is an ambiguous statement, for in the Greek it could mean the "apocalyptic vision" was seen, or "him who beheld"(John) was seen. Many linguistics experts believe, when centering around the noun being used, it is far more likely to have been refering to John. And when reading this statement over and over again I have to concur. John did live on past Domitian's reign.

So apart from Irenaeus' statement there is absolutely no definitive external or internal evidence that the Book was written in 96AD as you suppose. But there are numerous external and internal evidences for the earlier date prior to 70AD. And one moe thing. If you choose Irenaeus' statement as fact, then you are stuck with a witness whose writings are riddled with mistakes, one being that he said Jesus was 55 years old when He died! This is against all evidence and scripture.

Here are some 'internal' evidences for a pre-70AD writing:
1) As evidenced by the persecution going on in the Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia by the Jews. (i.e. Jews of the synagogue of Satan,Rev.2:9; Nicolaitians,Rev.2:15) After 70AD there did not exist an ability for the Jews to do much of any persecution. Furthur we also know of a very intense persecution on christians by Nero around 63-66AD.
2) Not only did John use time statements like 'soon' and 'near', he also saw the Temple(Rev.11:1,2) The Temple did not exist after 70AD!
3) John was told in regards to the beast that the seven hills also represented seven kings, five had already fallen, and at this time the sixth was on the throne. Nero was the sixth king, and when he died in 68AD Galba ascended the throne for only about six months(short time). There are other evidences as well, but for the sake of brevity I will include more of both external and internal if needed.

And I agree with Grasshopper. You can not seem to be able to overcome the fleshly physical body count syndrome. This is NOT about numbers!!! You have missed the spiritual context of the whole issue! This is about covenantal loss. This is about a loss of the Jew's holy city, their Temple, whatever was left of their nation, and most important of all THEIR RELIGION!!! It was destroyed, erased forever the way it was supposed to be conducted as commanded by God. God did more than just nail it to the cross, He ended it with the fire of his wrath, JUST AS HE PROMISED HE WOULD DO!!! But you just don't get it! Losing your religion, city, Temple, nation and covenant relation with God was far worse than some body count! And to top it off, to their disdain, God graffted in the Gentiles.

I wouldn't worry if i were you about quoting someone elses defination of tribulation, but rather believe Jesus' quote and defination, especially in regards to when Jesus said it would happen!

And believe me sir( for I do respect your position as elder), I have NOT trivialized and wrongly spiritualized His clear words as you have so accused me! But it is you who have back peddled and side-stepped the issues that I presented. I respect your right to disagree, but please, at least address these scripures that I present to you rather than cut me down--is that love?
As I have said, I respect and applaud your position as elder. For it is indeed noble. Yet it is one that cannot be taken lightly, for the consequences for not upholding that office will be great. God is Love; Go with God!

 

Amen!!!