The Apostasy

Try 1 Timothy 4:1-3 and 2 Timothy 3 (see context)

Rufus

 

Howdy again Carl, we meet again. I'm the other mid-week rapture advocate you met at rapture ready board. Can you guess who?

You're coming against a brick wall trying to convince the pre-week crowd of their bogus interpretation. Their belief has been deeply embedded in their brains by the big names in prophecy. Another false belief is the "imminent" return of the Lord.

The future 70th week of Daniel's prophecy is clearly divided into two sections.

"The people of the ruler (Antichrist) who will come will destroy the city and the sancturary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."
This prophecy will not occur until the middle of the seventh week when he is revealed claiming to be god in the temple and ending sacrifice and offering.

At the beginning of the 70th week the Antichrist along with other nations will "confirm a covenant" reaffirming Israel's sovereignty over the Temple Mount allowing the Jews to rebuild the third temple. The first half will be a time of peace in the Middle East and the world.

The 7 year period begins with peace, then is interrupted with wars and desolations at mid point. Daniel does not give any details of what transpires during the peaceful first half, but gives great detailed information in his book about the "time of the end," the second half when wars and "great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven" will occur (Lk. 21:10-11).

There cannot be a time of peace and a time of war occurring in the same time frame, yet this is exactly what pre week rapturists are proposing.




[ December 08, 2004, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: prophecynut ]

 

Ed,

Pitiful bud. You're not even whistling Dixie. Your "questions" are BOGUS. You can't give any verses to prooftext an answer for ANY of the questions. They're suppositional to suppress the truth of 2 Thess.2. You're going to INFER, SUPPOSE, and INTERJECT your opinion, instead of STATE scripture.

Christ has been revealed, and is going to be revealed. Who doesn't know that?

You're backing away now. You aren't going to do anything WITH THE VERSES of prooftext throughout this post "which are plain". You are going to DODGE THE DOCTRINAL STATEMENT by going elsewhere which has NOTHING TO DO with the revelation of the man of sin DURING Daniel's week.

The REVELATION of the man of sin is NOT the revealing, or revelation of Jesus Christ. They are not comparable.

Deal with the verses IN CONTEXT of subject matter. I have faith in you that you will not.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

Prophecynut,

It's been a while. You'll have to refresh my memory.

Yes, a brick wall is ALL that God is going to show these birds.

Let me say that I differ with your teaching on the division of Daniel's week, and other things. Since I was on that site, I have written a book concerning the Midweek Rapture. Check out www.midweekpublishing.com and www.themidweekrapture.com.

Hope to hear from you brother.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

Carl

My rapture ready board name was 'thomasbeliever'
Was aware back then of your intent to publish a book on the mid-week rapture. I told you of my intent to publish on the same subject. I've made many contacts to seminaries and prophecy teachers and local churches for publication assistance to no avail. Haven't given up hope, its only a question of when it will be revealed to the Church. In it I will announce God's judgment of America, a detailed chronology of Rev. And the timing of the Second Coming.

We have our differences which will stay that way, a least we agree on the timing of the rapture, we are rare birds indeed.

 

Prophecynut,

Yes, I seem to remember you, but vaguely. Did you also go over to ZolaBoard? I can't remember exactly what our differences concerned, but the gospel seems to come to mind.

Well, hope you're doing ok. The road to getting someone to help you is hard. The Lord blessed me enough to be able to self publish them with my own money through construction jobs. I am also a general contractor. What is that "chic name" they call working and preaching now. (BI-VOCATIONAL?) How quaint.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

How does a mid-week/mid-trib rapture viewpoint affect doctrine vs the pre-trib viewpoint?

 

Carl, I did go over to Zola board. Got banned at both places, rapture ready it was for covert threats against administrators at Zola board because of anti-Semitism


JAMES
The difference between the pre-week and mid- week is the length of the Tribulation, 7 years for pre and 3.5 years for the mid. A mid-week rapture is still pre-Trib or second half of the 7 year covenant.

 

right, so I guess my real question is why do you guys argue like your dealing with catholics?? I can't see any discernable difference between what you guys believe and what ed believes, other than a supposed 3 1/2 year difference.

 

Correct James, the only difference is the length of the Trib, both views has the Church out of here before God's judges the earth. All of Rev. 6-19 is crammed into the last 3.5 years.

A mid-week rapture negates the imminency of His return, a major tenet of the pre-week view.

 

James,

There is quite a difference between the midweek rapture and preweek rapture.

Biblical proof is the main contention, which ANY preweek rapturist lacks. PAUL STATED there would be a gathering BEFORE the day of the Lord, and IDENTIFIED it as being midweek by the TIME OF THE WOMAN IN TRAVAIL. (1 Thess.5) See Jer.30 for commentary, which references the GREAT TRIBULATION, which starts at the MIDST OF THE WEEK, according to the Lord Jesus.

My contentions are plainly stated in this thread with verses. The preweeks can't handle the verses. They ACT like Catholics sometimes. (Heresy is where you find it.) Even among evangelical, fundamental, conservative, blah, blah, blah, "Christians". (1 Cor.11, 2 Tim.2)

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

3½-years is one sixth of one percent of the Church age so
far (and being reduced yearly as the
Master taries.

1/6 of 1% is trivial.

 

Prophecynut: "There cannot be a time of peace and a time of war
occurring in the same time frame, yet this is exactly
what pre week rapturists are proposing."

Obviously you know nothing of Nuclear Winter


Carlaimpinge: //The REVELATION of the man of sin is
NOT the revealing, or revelation of Jesus Christ.
They are not comparable.//

Obviously you know nothing of debate. We are talking about
what "reveal" means. Unless you can provide a dictionary
meaning that shows the Antichrist comitting the AOD
is "reaveal", then you loose the debate.

The "revelation" of Antichrist is his showing up.
Here is one old translation
i can get electronic. Maybe this week-end
i'll show a bunch of pre-KJV versions that show the
Greek tends word translated "reveal"
means more about THE ANTICHRIST showing up than
THE ANTICHRIST committing the AOD.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Weymouth New Testament)
Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day
cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first,
and the appearing of the man of sin,
the son of perdition, who sets himself against, ...

Prophecynut: "Got banned at both places, rapture ready
it was for covert threats against administrators ... "

I got zapped from rapture ready (and i did
did toe the party lane as any pre-7-year-trib
kind of guy can) for the Exodus 1:8 reason while the
boss was deployed to the Persian Gulf. I can't beleive
they let newbies be moderator/admins

 

I have no idea what a Nuclear Winter would be like, you're looking awful good in your picture considering you know all about it

The peace comes before the Trib

1 Thess. 5:3 "while people are saying Peace and safety, destruction will come on them suddenly...."

Jer. 4:10 "Then I said, 'Ah, Sovereign LORD how completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, You will have peace, when the sword is at our throats'."

Eze. 38:10 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind (the Antichrist) and you will devise an evil scheme. You will say, "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people - all of them living without walls and without gates and bars."

 

Prophecynut: "There cannot be a time of peace and a time of war
occurring in the same time frame, yet this is exactly
what pre week rapturists are proposing."

Prophecynut: "The peace comes before the Trib"

You contradict yourself???

On the dividing line between peace and war,
is the rapture. The rapture/resurreciton
is before the week, not midweek -- it is on
the interface between peace and war.
The world will see the coming Messiah (Antichrist)
and he will be revealed, announced, show
up on the world scene in his own time.

---------------------------------

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah, Daniel's 70th week)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

Ed,

Why you poor soul. You're not going to touch the verses are you bud?

Debate and dictionary?

I've got the BIBLE TEXT which defines, identifies, and corroborates itself AS BEING in the midst of Daniel's week. YOU HAVE YOUR OPINION that "revelation" is preweek. You certainly don't have ANY VERSES.

His revelation occurs in CONNECTION with the WORKING OF SATAN. (Rev.12-13)

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Ignore the verses, as you have previously.

Lose the debate? Don't be silly. You lost your mind with the foolishness of a 7 year tribulation, and a preweek revelation. YOU HAVE NO VERSES.

Quote;

The "revelation" of Antichrist is his showing up.

Unquote.

No prooftext, just opinion. (Prooftexts are those verses which CORROBORATE, DEFINE, and IDENTIFY the statement.)

Blow on bud. (Modern day Job!) When you get some verses, come back around and see me.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

Carlaimpinge: "His revelation occurs in CONNECTION
with the WORKING OF SATAN. (Rev.12-13)"

Please show me the Book Chapter, VERSE, and WORD(s).
Please also show your referant to "His" here, thank you.

The Holman Christian Standard Bible

Matthew 7:2 ; (HCSB):
For with the judgment you use, you will be judged,
and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Every statement you make from now on will require a
verse with it.

To bad you have yet to figure out i win debates
against people who have yet to figure out we are discussing
what verses mean here. The current discussion (which
you are NOT following very well) is the meaning of "reveal"
in 2 Thess 2:3,6,8. Until you tell the rest of the readers
what it is you think/believe/guess that "reveal" means, then
they will accept my understanding (or stick with their own,
if different).

Here is Ed's riot act:
----------------------------------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.

Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.

 

Carlimpinge: "You lost your mind with the foolishness of a 7 year tribulation,
and a preweek revelation."

I don't know how you got a believe in a preweek revelation.
The revelation of the antichrist is AFTER the rapture/resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection is at the start of the week.

Carlaimpinge: "2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked
be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

Please refer to the Version as well as the Book, Chapter, and verse.
Thank you for extending this common courtesy.

This obviously means the revelation at the beginning of the
week and the destruction at the end of the week.
God knows the beginning from the end. He shares it with us.
To bad some of us can't get it.

Quote;
The "revelation" of Antichrist is his showing up.
Unquote.

YOur failure to provide a better explanation means you loose the
point here that the revelation of antichrist is at the beginning
of the week.

 

ED
I haven't located any evidence the Anti-messiah reigns for 7 years. Got any verses to prove he does.

I have several indicating a reign of 3.5 years:

Dn. 7:25 "....The saints will be handed over to him (Antichrist) for a time (1 year), times (2 years) and half a time (1/2 a year).

Dn. 12:7 "..... "It will be for a time, times and half a time."

Rev. 11:2 "".... They (Antichrist and Muslim nations) will trample on the holy city for 42 months."

12:6 "The woman (Israel) fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."

13:5,7 "the beast (Antichrist) was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.

"He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them." (see Dn. 7:25 above)

 

Prophecynut: "ED
I haven't located any evidence the Anti-messiah reigns for
7 years. Got any verses to prove he does."

I haven't either. He reigns for 3½-years.
He is revealed 3½-years before he starts reigning.
3½+3½=7. What do you call those 7 years?
How about "reigning"?
Sorry, problem with the English. We commonly call
a set and one of it's subsets by the same name.

Another confusing example is that Jesus mentions
Great Tribulation meaning the time of the second half
of the week. But the total 7 years week day is
also called the Tribualtion Period.

OF course, metonymy is a retorical and prophetic method,
even if does cauese the occational understanding
problem.