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Featured The baptism in Romans 6:3.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There are two or three views. Water, the Spirit or the Body of Chrisr (1 Corinthians 12:12-13). What I would like to see are, as much as possible definitve explainations for each. Where I would be able to give a defence for each view. It is my view, the term for baptism, unqualified, refers to water. So you know in advance where I am coming from.
     
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Every mention of the word, 'baptism', in this post is referring to, "Baptised down in under water and raised up again, out of water" and by The Authority of God Vested in Jesus'New Testament churches.

    What kind.

    Those discribed in The Bible, exclusively.

    ...
    The expression Paul refers to, 'baptized into Christ', is associated with a concept foreign to everyone here on the Board that I have read after.

    Baptism is an Ordinance Ordained by Jesus and the foreign concept to those, here, as far as I have read, is that The Ordinance of Baptism was Ordained, by Jesus, as a Doctrine of The Lord's churches that He also Divinely Originated and Ordained.

    Scriptural Baptism is Administed only by The Authority of God Vested in JESUS'CHURCHES, by God's Authority in The New Testament, from a man Sent by God to baptise, with The Authority of GOD, AS Testified by Jesus.

    So 'baptism' into one of The Kind of churches that Jesus Organized is the only means of Authority to be Scriptually baptized.

    God Sees it as Important enough to Write much of The Gospels, New Testament, and Revelation about it.

    Catholic and then, later, Protestant, religious gatherings are no where near aligned with or associated with Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit, or The BIBLE, with regard to Church Truths and Scriptural Baptism, so be it.

    The seriousness and Eternal significance of 'Following The Lord in being baptized, by The Authority of God, as Jesus Walked 40 or so miles to be', is overlooked and oblivious to most who name The Name of Jesus.

    And if they were not Saved, or Saved and not Called by God, effectively, to learn and know anything about Jesus' churches, or to be Scriptually Baptised, into one of Jesus called-out assemblies to serve Him; that is God's Choice.

    Gill gives THIS, however, by aurgueing from a position of not understanding or believing what is Taught will just leave both parties not knowing The Bible, on it.

    Gill:

    "the true meaning of the phrase "baptized into Christ", I take to be, is to be baptized purely for the sake of Christ,

    INTO A BIBLICAL CHURCH by SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM, which the only thing Paul and God discuss, in The Bible.

    in imitation of him, who has set us an example,

    and because baptism is an ordinance of his;

    it is to submit to baptism INTO A BIBLICAL CHURCH by SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM, which the only thing Paul and God discuss, in The Bible. with a view to his glory,

    to testify our affection for him,

    and subjection to him,

    without laying any stress or dependence on it for salvation;

    such who are thus INTO A BIBLICAL CHURCH by SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM, which the only thing Paul and God discuss, in The Bible,

    are "baptized into his death";

    they not only resemble Christ in his sufferings and death, by being immersed in water,

    but they declare their faith in the death of Christ,

    and also share in the benefits of his death; such as peace, pardon, righteousness, and atonement:

    now this proves, that such persons are dead to sin, who are so baptized; INTO A BIBLICAL CHURCH by SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM, which the only thing Paul and God discuss, in The Bible,

    because by the death of Christ, into which they are baptized, INTO A BIBLICAL CHURCH by SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM, which the only thing Paul and God discuss, in The Bible, they are PROFESSING THEIR SOUL IS justified from sin; by the death of Christ, their old man is crucified, and the body of sin destroyed;

    besides, believers in baptism INTO A BIBLICAL CHURCH by SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM, which the only thing Paul and God discuss, in The Bible, profess themselves to be dead to sin and the world, and their baptism INTO A BIBLICAL CHURCH by SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM, which the only thing Paul and God discuss, in The Bible, an obligation upon them to live unto righteousness"
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The word means immerse.

    It does NOT have to be associated with water.

    Here is one example from 1 Peter 3:
    18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
    So not every verse is about water.

    What every verse is about that uses baptism is immersion.

    The common misconception of Romans 6 is that it is discussing water. It is not. Romans 6:
    1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

    5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old selfa was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    There are then given two passages in which baptism is used (immersion) completely isolated from association with water.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Noah and family were delivered by the flood, as an anti-type, not literally, nelievers being delivered, baptism, water delivers the believers by their good consciece and the power of the resurrection. Answer, how were Noah and family literally delivered by the flood? If you do not understand that, you will misinterpret the latter.

    That first example you are wrong on, as I explained. The second example is the type of argument I want to hear about. Thank you.
     
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  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Neither example has water association. That disproves the view of the Op.

    As far as Noah, I AGAIN post from 1 Peter 3:
    18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

    If you actually think H2O is what was used to bring the eight persons were brought safely through, rather than the salvation authorized by god brought them safely through the water, you are totally mistaken.

    The family did not parish IN the water but were born THROUGH (the ordeal of) the water (flood). The water didn’t save them, the water was out to destroy all. The folks didn’t perish not because of the water, but in spite of the water.

    Again , not all baptism is used as aligned with water.

    Baptism means immersion.

    What “immersed” Noah and the folks?


    The same that immerses every redeemed of the Lord. Not water, GRACE. “Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord” (Genesis 6)
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Well as I heard one Old Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist preacher say... If the candidate for baptism is not regenerated before they are immersed in the baptismal waters then they go in a dry devil and come out a wet one... Brother Glen:)
     
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We disagree. Noah and his family, as the translation of your choice words it, "were brought safely through water." What relevance has that to do with a baptism being an anti-type of that? Immersion, typically done using water. And this anti-type has nothing to do with water? It becomes nonsense. Again, thank you.
     
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The KJV uses the word “baptisms” (plural) in Hebrews 6.

    2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    Baptisms here is aligned with ceremonial washings.

    Paul was arrested in Jerusalem during days he was spending in the purification ceremonies of the temple. Folks can read about it here (Acts 21). These are the washings typical Jews understood.

    But note! It was not the washings, but the DOCTRINE associated that is discussed in the quote from Hebrews.

    So, this verse isn’t about H2O, but the WHY of the need for purifications (again plural).

    Do believer’s sin?

    Of course!

    Is there need for forgiveness and cleansing?

    Every time!

    How then does such take place?

    Definitely not by “water” but by the Godly repentance and cleansing from the Redeemer.

    Paul expresses this very point to Titus (3), saying,
    3For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Noah was never immersed in the water.

    They were kept dry, safe, and preserved while the water raged all about them.

    The folks were brought through the ordeal of the flood.
    The folks were brought through the ordeal of the crossing of the Red Sea.
    The folks were brought through the ordeal of the crossing over the Jordan river.

    The folks always brought through by the favor of God.

    Believers are always brought through by the favor of God.

    Baptism isn’t always associated as immersed in water, but immersed in trouble, sorrow, fright, ... even death.

    Were the people troubled, frightened, sorrowful before crossing the Red Sea?

    How about the crossing of the Jordan? Is it not symbolic of the believer passing from this place to that promised?

    Baptism means immersed, and as such, immersion is not always putting the believer in water, and subject to the wet of water.
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I’ll have to attend to this thread later, my sweet wife is needing my attention.
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Luke 3:16-17, ". . . John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. . . ." Water, the Holy Spirit and the fire of the Judgement. And the baptism of Christ's death on the cross (an intrepretation), Luke 12:50. They have one teaching.
     
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  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    There is one baptism.

    Other uses of the word, 'baptism', are symbolic, or figurative.

    The word, 'baptism', is used symbolically, or figuratively, to express 'an immersion'.

    Roman's 8 and I Peter 3:21 are referring to one baptism. The Bible church Ordinance Ordained for Jesus' churches.

    ...

    I Peter 1:20 has the Arc on dry land, dead, and is lifted up, then the contents delivered safely, as a figurative comparison and not a perfect type.

    Noah wasn't given Saving Efficacy from The Flood any more than a lost soul by taking a bath, or going swimming.

    The Flood was an Administration of death, as is, 'the Law'.

    ...
    Titus 3 has nothing to do with water, baptism, or a flood, or of swimming or taking a bath, or of any figurative or symbolic allusion to any kind of 'baptism'.

    Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Unregenerate soul Washed by Blood and Regenerated by the Holy Ghost, which in this instance is a Figurative 'Type' of...? Answer: The Holy Ghost.

    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Jesus Blood "shed", with which to "wash"

    7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


    9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

    10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

    11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
    ...

    Hebrews 6:2 are heretical 'baptisms', as examples of hereicies.
    ...

    Baptism carries no Value or Grace, to any Saved child of God, including Noah, and The Flood was not Grace, it was the Execution of Judgment.

    Noah was in The Arc.

    The Arc is Jesus and the Grace of God Bestowed upon Noah.

    re: "same that immerses every redeemed of the Lord. Not water, GRACE. “Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord” (Genesis 6"
     
    #13 Alan Gross, Oct 16, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Ephesians 4:5. And I am of the view point, this refers to the water baptism, which began with John the Baptist, Luke 3:16, and continued with Jesus and His disciples onward, John 4:1-2, Matthew 28:19.
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The straight-forward definitions to inform the following verses are added.

    12 For as the body human

    is one, one human body

    and hath many members, body parts

    and all the members of that one body, human being many, parts are one body: one human body.

    so also is Christ. as The Head and Member of each of the separate called-out assembly that Jesus would Call, "My church", mentioned in The Book of Revelation, for example.

    The "church" is a generic usage of the word translated, which in the plural is "churches".

    The "husband" is the head of the wife.

    One Universal, Invisible, or Visible husband would be a Satanic concept.

    Satan has attempted that concept, after 2000 years, as an application, or new fangle devinition for the "church".

    That Satanic concept has no existence and no association with God or to The Bible, OTHER THAN: The "church" is a generic usage of the word translated, which in the plural is "churches".

    SAME WITH "BODY".



    13 For (because) by one Spirit The Holy Spirit that Saved them and Governs them as a child of God) are we (those children of God that God Saved there, locally, and Lead by The Superintendance of The Holy Spirit to Answer God' New Testament Command to be baptized into that local assembly, in Corinth, which is the only kind of church there is in existence in The Bible, or anywhere else, which is a local called-out assembly) all (all those Saved, in and around Corinth at that time, who were Being Given the Unction of The Holy Spirit to Follow the Lord's Command and Example to submit to baptism into membership of The church of Jesus Christ in Corinth had been and were) baptized ( by Scriptural baptism in water, as Jesus' Ordainance Divinely Instituted into any of HIS CHURCHES) into one body (The Organized Institution of a Divinely Organized and assembled congregation, gathered into one body of believers who Had Been Call-Out of the surrounding World to Put their Light On A Candlestick, THERE IN CORINTH) whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink (of that Rock) into one Spirit (and that Rock is Christ).

    This passage mentions one baptism, water, as a Divinely Instituted Bible church Ordinance.

    The is no use of baptism, figuratively, or symbolically.

    The Spirit of God Who Governs and Maintains Jesus' churches throughout The Age of Churches, until Jesus Returns, Supernaturally Empowered the believers spoken of in this passage to Follow The Lord's Command to be baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ in Corinth.

    The Holy Spirit has never baptized anything.

    Nothing is stated in this passage or any other that would TEACH SUCH, to a Saved child of God.

    Not that those who think that error are lost.

    I'm saying IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE and GOD IS NOT IMPARTING THAT ERROR and...

    ... God's people CAN BE TAUGHT...

    ... THAT THERE IS NOTHING THERE ABOUT ANYTHING LIKE THAT...

    All Saved souls in The Old and New Testament drink of that Same Rock, which is Christ.

    A reference to the one baptism in water and that the Gentiles and Jews, there, both "drank" of the Same Spirit are not related, just because both references allud to 'fluid'.

    Spiritually speaking, in Bible Terms, figuratively, The Spirit drank would not be water.

    They ate of His meat and drank of His Blood.
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and that is significant that it is identified as something to be recognized as more than 'any immersion'.

    Then, from the Scriptural concept pointed out as the 'one baptism', there are symbolic and figurative uses of the word, 'baptise'.

    The meaning of 'baptise', is very important to God and Dealt with a lot in The New Testament.

    I had said that water baptism was all that Paul or God Talked about in The Bible, meaning in The Bible, in that passage.

    "baptism INTO A BIBLICAL CHURCH by SCRIPTURAL BAPTISM, which the only thing Paul and God discuss, in The BIBLE"

    ...
    should say, like, "here" in The Bible, in this passage, in Roman's 6.


    It is very important for us to understand what God wants us to learn and not 'learn', in His various uses of 'baptism' in The Literature He's Given us.

    Dunno if anyone cared for my saying, Baptist you... with fire" indicated thee lost souls John was speaking to, if they did not bring forth fruit to indicate that they had Repeated of their sins and been Saved, first,

    ... they would be inundated and immersed in The Unquenchable Fire, when they were baptised into The Lake of Fire, by Jesus.

    That's the Message in context, I believe.

    Fire.
    ...
    Also, those who were questioned and said they knew of no such thing as The Holy Ghost.

    Who's baptism were you baptised with?

    Well, unless they had heard of The Holy Spirit, in Conversion and The New Birth, purhaps they had been immersed by someone, without having been Saved.

    They hadn't heard the Word of The Lord and Been Given Repentance and Faith, BEFORE BEING BAPTISED.

    So, there dealt with them to get them Saved, first.

    ...

    That which is born of water, in the context of Jesus being asked if we are to go back into our mother's womb to be born again, Jesus Says 'that which is born of the flesh is flesh'.

    Born of the flesh, by natural childbirth into this World, as a sin-cursed descendant of Adam, includes the mother's womb breaking water.

    That which is born of water is the first birth.

    Salvation involves the Second Birth from Above and is The Spiritual New Birth Implanting and Regenerating The Divine Nature into the soul as a New Creation in Christ that then is Spiritually Enabled to Repent of sin, in Agreement with God and The Bible, it's Laws and Content, and Have Faith Given to their soul to Believe in the Work of Jesus, Dying The Just, for the unjust and unregerated.

    We must be born again, but no, not returning to be naturally born in the flesh, involving our mother's water breaking in her womb....

    According to Jesus.

    ...


     
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  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    walked into theology class one day - on the board - "there is not a drop of water in Romans Chapter 6".
     
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  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    We get that class, above, from agedman and it doesn't hold water, I'll give you that.

    Statements have been advanced and devoured for Centuries regarding Jesus Christ as The Savior.

    Children of God Catch onto The Blood, The Suffering, The Death, The Burial, The Resurrection of Jesus Christ, for The Salvation of their soul in these passages, such as Romans 6 and are not blown away, by cursive surface readings of assumed meanings in Words of God.

    The Bible Teaches Jesus is The Savior.

    After a soul is Saved, every one of them is Commanded to be baptized, Scripturally.

    Those who Follow The Lord's Command to be baptized do so in submission and gratefulness to Him and willfully join an assembly of His, as a member of one of Jesus' churches He Divinely Originated to Bring Glory to God in His churches, which Teach His Word, throughout all ages.

    Vague grasps and beating the wind doesn't make false presumptions into anything real that will Stand at The Judgement.
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    agreed. still post #17 is true.
     
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Did you learn in school that you came from a monkey, too?

    Should someone just write that on a board and say, 'that' s the way it is'?

    It is not.

    So, instead of a brief quip on a board, we are talking about The Bible and suggesting something other than water baptism in Roman's 6 has not been done.

    There is no Bible Teaching to support another inference to this passage.

    They don't hold water.
     
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