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Featured The Bible war.

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 37818, Oct 25, 2018.

  1. 37818

    37818 Member

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    At issue is the identity of texts of written word God. The identity of the correct text against incorrect variant. And then matters of interpretation and translation.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Member

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    We have a war going on in regards to the text of the New Testament and what is and what is not the actual word of God. KJVO, TR, the so called critical texts, the Majority text and the common text which is not in dispute except from the enemies of the word of God.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What is at sake is the insistence by the Kjvo that ONLY the TR and Kjv accurate reflect the word of God!
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The KJB is the bible of the text which played a major role in much of Americas Awakenings /Revivals and the 20-21st Century missionary movement.

    I am not KJVO, former KJVO.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No one is disputing the importance of the Kjv in history of translations, but we do have major issues with the KJVO!
     
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  6. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I understand that you have disagreements with KJVOism, but why would you have major issues with it? How is it affecting you, personally?
     
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    it is not supported by either the bible, nor textual critcism, and has been used to drive a wedge between churches and people in churches!
     
  8. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    My answer to that would be, so what? To the KJVO, it is supported by both. It's like the kid down the street saying, "My Dad could beat up your Dad!" Would you feel the need to go and disprove that kid? That's his opinion and perspective of his Dad.

    If I drive a Ford and you drive a Chevy, and I think all Chevys are inferior to Fords, so what; that's my opinion based on my experience with Fords. You may disagree, and that's fine. It shouldn't be an issue. I don't know any KJVO authors that go outside of their camp to make it an issue.

    I've heard this claim all my life. I have been in IFB churches for the past 42 years since being saved. I served on staff at 3 different IFB churches and pastored a church for several years. At no time was there any division in any of the churches because of the Bible version issue.

    I've never once confronted a modern version proponent about using their version of choice. I have, however, been confronted by people, not from our church, who have seen our SOF on a website and have called to argue about it.
     
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  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I bear to differ it has not been used to drive a wedge, men have used it in ignorance to drive a wedge!... It is not the KJV per say it is how men have used it to bring division between churches and Gods people... Would God approve of any men using any translation to divide his people?... God forbid!... My church uses the KJV and I read and study from it and I believe it is the word of God... But I don't hang it over any ones head saying this is the word of God read it... This Bible War started a long time ago not by men sharing the word of God but by KJVO's which I'm not a part of shoving the word of God down someones throat... Is this any different then the priest of the Catholic church (no offence to the previous Catholic brethren on here) where the word of God was chained to the pulpit and the priest told the people what it said?... Men started this War, God didn't and the War continues... I don't concern myself what version a man reads and studies, my question is this... Do you serve my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?... That is more important than any version!... Brother Glen:)

    I forgot to add one small thing that might be of interest to you all... If you are caught in some countries with any translation you might end up DEAD!
     
    #9 tyndale1946, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This is not a fight between those of us who prefer the Kjv and those of us who prefer say the Nas , but between those who insist that only the Kjv is to be used in church and in private studies period! The common trick of the KJVO is to say that those not agreeing with them are bashing the Kjv!
     
  11. OnlyaSinner

    OnlyaSinner Active Member
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    Not sure if this really qualifies as personal, but the Ruckmanite end of KJVOism would say I'm bound for hell because my testimony of salvation is that it occurred at my home with only the RSV at hand. Of course, that has no bearing on my standing before God, which - like for anyone - is truly known only by God and me.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Member

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    92.2% of the manuscripts have a reading and 0.4% omit it. Luke 4:4. The Orthodox Church Greek text has other variant. The issue is the word of God.
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    92.6% of statistics are made up on the spot! :D
     
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  14. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, brother, that the fight is not between the people in the pew. The fight is between the academia, on both sides of the issue, that think they're the only ones smart enough to understand the issue.

    Again, if someone insists that they use only the KJV in their church or in their private study, have at it; that's not going to bother me at all. What version someone else uses in no way affects my relationship or fellowship with the Lord.

    It is a big issue on debate forums, but not so much out in the real world. I can't remember the last conference I attended where the version issue was even mentioned.
     
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  15. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that would definitely qualify as personal. It would also qualify as heresy. That transcends preference and enters firmly into legalism, which can be clearly and directly refuted in the Word of God.
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    If they understand the text-critical issues and can study those issues first hand by reading and understanding Hebrew and Greek grammar and syntax wouldn't you agree they are better suited to understand the issue than a person who has not bothered to learn the original languages and just pontificates about his unsupported (and unsupportable) a priori assumptions?

    And I am not aware of a single scholar (from academia, as you put it) who understands text-critical issues who is KJVO. Don Waite comes closest but his belief that the TR of Scrivener is the "Preserved word of God" in Greek shows his lack of understanding of the transmission issues. Scrivener's TR did not exist prior to the 1880s so it is impossible for it to be the "Traditional Text" used all down through the ages of Christendom.

    The only non-KJVO I am aware of who has made a similar claim is Wilbur Pickering who claims his "Family 35" is "the autograph." (And that is really sad, as the second edition of his book, "The Identity of the New Testament Text" was an excellent book on the subject. Available here: http://www.standardbearers.net/uplo..._New_Testament_Text_Dr_Wilbur_N_Pickering.pdf )

    Both are wrong. Waite because his "TR" did not exist until Scrivener compiled it from several sources and Pickering is (probably) wrong because there is no way to determine if Family 35 reflects the autographs as Family 35 dates to about 1100 AD. That 1000 year gap should give us all pause to think.

    The problem is that we have pastors and laymen who have no understanding of Hebrew, Greek, Textual Criticism, or the methodologies of Textual Transmission offering opinions based on their own ignorance of the subject caused by their lack of education in these matters.

    On another forum I have been trying to get a poster to tell me why he prefers the reading "He who" over "God" in 1 Timothy 3:16. He can't do it. He has no idea why some manuscripts read "Ος" and some supposedly have an abbreviation for "Θεος."

    And the same is true of KJVOs. They have formed an opinion not based on facts but on their emotional attachment to the bible version they grew up with and that is the end of it.

    Ignorance does not make a good foundation for correct theology.
     
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  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All that we cna do then who have not been fully trained in the discipline of textual criticism would be to read the various experts, and then decide for ourselves which one made the the most and best argruement for their view!
     
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Guess that menat God never save any until 1611?
     
  19. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I would agree, yes, that they are better suited to understand the issue, but there seems to be good men on both sides of the debate who have vast areas of disagreements. My point is that academics, although beneficial and to be preferred if possible, is not the end all that some think it is. Men with the same (or similar) academic pedigrees have looked at the issue and arrived at different conclusions.

    I do not know many men who have "not bothered" to learn these languages. Time and resources hinder many. Plus, it really isn't that big of an issue. I do not personally know any authors on my side of the debate that take the debate outside of their camps or circles. The books they write are targeted for churches of like faith and practice. The last KJV Conference I attended (15 years ago in Murfreesboro, TN) was attended by preachers who all believed just like I do. It was more or less a pep rally for the KJV.

    I cannot comment because "scholar" is somewhat subjective. I will agree that most would not fall into the Ruckman camp, but many indeed do take a strong defense of the KJV.

    I disagree. These men are, more than likely, offering opinions based upon what other men have written on the subject whom they determine to be authoritative on the subject. I, myself, have quoted your writings (always with permission - as you know) because I consider you to be an authority in that given area. If I quote an authority, does that make it an ignorant statement?
    While I'm sure this would apply to some, I would quickly say that not at all to others. I, for one, have read dozens of books on the subject and have tried to glean as much information as possible. I have read Burgeon and I have read Metzger and many others in between.

    Education is not just what you know; education is knowing where to go to get what you don't know.
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Who, on the KJVO side of the debate, in your opinion, is a scholar specializing in textual transmission?

    Again, please name a KJVO who is a recognized textual scholar.

    It is a HUGE issue. Look how it dominates almost every internet forum discussing the bible.

    An earned Ph.D/Th.D., or its academic equivalent, from an accredited Seminary or University in the field of Biblical Languages, Textual Criticism, or Linguistics.

    Name one man who is KJVO who also has an accredited Ph.D./Th.D. and is broadly respected in the field.

    And how did they determine those men were authoritative? I have seen dozens of KJVOs claim John Burgon as their "champion" who don't understand what Burgon was writing about. Burgon advocated revising the KJV and called for 150 changes in the Textus Receptus in the Gospel of Matthew alone. Scrivener made about 250 changes to the "Traditional Text" before its final publication.

    How do you determine the writer has such authority?

    You say you have quoted me as an authority yet you dismiss virtually everything I post regarding textual transmission and translation. So, how do you determine which of my positions are authoritative and which are not?
     
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